Evidence of meeting #49 for Government Operations and Estimates in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was know.
A video is available from Parliament.
Liberal
Anthony Housefather Liberal Mount Royal, QC
Do you and your wife go out to dinner with the Prime Minister and his wife?
Liberal
Anthony Housefather Liberal Mount Royal, QC
Have you ever, outside of a business relationship, had social contact with the Prime Minister?
Liberal
Anthony Housefather Liberal Mount Royal, QC
Okay, so let's put aside the idea that he is your close personal friend. He doesn't even.... You mentioned the Conflict of Interest Act, which you obviously went through when you were named ambassador to China, and you would be aware of the definition of a friendship within the meaning of that act. Do you believe you even meet the definition of a friendship under the Conflict of Interest Act?
Liberal
Anthony Housefather Liberal Mount Royal, QC
Perfect. Let's move to something else.
While you were in your very prestigious voluntary roles—which, again, I appreciate, and I think all Canadians, regardless of their political party appreciate your serving the country under successive prime ministers and volunteering your time—did you ever lobby the Prime Minister, Chrystia Freeland or anyone in the Prime Minister's Office for business for McKinsey?
Liberal
Anthony Housefather Liberal Mount Royal, QC
Do you believe that there were discussions by others at McKinsey inappropriately lobbying for business?
As an Individual
I don't. There's a very strong set of practices and rules on that. I had no interest on the McKinsey relationship. I thought this was giving something back to Canada. It was an honour to be asked. It's an honour to be asked. When a minister or a prime minister asks you to do something, I think, as a Canadian, you do it. I was honoured to do it. I worked my tail off on doing that. It was zero to do with anything to do with contracts or things like that. Zero.
Liberal
Anthony Housefather Liberal Mount Royal, QC
One of the interesting questions I was looking at is about how the McKinsey business with the government increased rapidly in 2019, 2020, 2021. When we're talking about the $115-odd million dollars, and I'm not giving you an exact figure for anybody who's...it seems to me that almost all of that business occurred in the last three years, after you were appointed ambassador to China and left McKinsey. Let me also understand this: When you left McKinsey, you sold your shares in McKinsey. Is that correct?
Liberal
Anthony Housefather Liberal Mount Royal, QC
You no longer profited from any contract that McKinsey would have received from the Government of Canada or anybody else.
Liberal
Anthony Housefather Liberal Mount Royal, QC
As ambassador, did you misuse your position to lobby for business, somehow, for a company with which you were no longer associated and from which you didn't profit?
As an Individual
There were extremely strict rules and protocols put in place. Basically, it was excommunicado. There were very strict processes and protocols followed. If anything ever came in, it went to the deputy head of mission or the deputy.
Liberal
Anthony Housefather Liberal Mount Royal, QC
I would assume, then, that anything that came in, with respect to McKinsey.... As ambassador, you were completely excluded from this and had no part in any discussions.
As an Individual
That's exactly right.
There were also five others we put.... I voluntarily put on three of them, even though the Ethics Commissioner didn't think I should. I was just focused on what I had to do.
Liberal
Anthony Housefather Liberal Mount Royal, QC
That's perfect.
It's interesting that the business increased. If it were true that during your time at McKinsey you did so much lobbying of your friends for contracts, then you did a terrible job, obviously, because the business increased “way-fold” after you left.
As an Individual
I don't even care. I wasn't looking at that.
I would say again, though, look at what's happened with the other spend. There are all sorts of different analyses. You need a magnifying glass. It's a lot of money—don't get me wrong. However, compared to the others—the Accentures, the Deloittes and the KPMGs.... I think one should look at that, so—
Liberal
Anthony Housefather Liberal Mount Royal, QC
I agree. As I mentioned the other day, if I had a contract for $100, and the next year I paid that company $5,000, I would have increased my business with that company 50 times over, but it would be a minute amount of money compared to a total spend.
The same is true with McKinsey. There's been a drastic increase in McKinsey spending, but it is a drop in the bucket compared to what some other consulting firms made, which is why we need to look at the larger question.
Mr. Chair, do I have any time left?