Evidence of meeting #49 for Government Operations and Estimates in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was know.
A video is available from Parliament.
5:25 p.m.
Liberal
Majid Jowhari Liberal Richmond Hill, ON
I will help you. In 2018, the revenue to McKinsey from the Government of Canada was about $3.4 million—so $3.4 million compared to $10 billion.
Did you, during that time as managing director, set a strategic way of trying to grow the business in Canada and specifically within the Government of Canada?
5:25 p.m.
Liberal
Majid Jowhari Liberal Richmond Hill, ON
So now we know that between 2021 and 2022 you were completely divested and you were focused on another critical mission abroad. There were services around the immigration, procurement, defence and security industries that were provided by McKinsey.
Did you, while holding your position as part of the economic growth council group, provide any type of facilitation between McKinsey resources...or suggest that the partners get in contact with the Government of Canada, the PMO, the minister's office or the departments?
5:25 p.m.
Liberal
Majid Jowhari Liberal Richmond Hill, ON
Do you think any of the recommendations that you were developing...? You were very clear on explaining that your role—and that of the group of 14—was not to develop a policy but a group of recommendations.
Could any of those recommendations in any way have been leaked to McKinsey, and could McKinsey have used them as a way of developing any type of operational, tactical or strategic initiative to secure a contract with the Government of Canada?
5:25 p.m.
As an Individual
No.
Again, the contracting process is very rigorous. It isn't done on a relationship, like, “Hey, I know you. You go do it.” It's a very strict process. It's even tougher than you would see on the private sector side.
There's competition there, and there are set standards that you have to follow. As I said, I had no discussion whatsoever.... I was not aware of the work that McKinsey was doing.
5:25 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley
I'm afraid that's your time, sir. I have taken two seconds away from you, but it's not enough time for a proper question.
Mr. Genuis, you have five minutes.
Welcome to OGGO, sir.
February 1st, 2023 / 5:25 p.m.
Conservative
Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB
Thank you, Chair. I've found the testimony interesting today.
We have heard the Prime Minister speak very fondly and personally about you in public. You told us today that you're not even his friend; you didn't recognize him. However, he knew you were a Habs fan. I wonder if this is just one of those cases of unrequited affection.
Do you know Andrew Pickersgill, and could you tell us what your relationship was with him?
5:25 p.m.
As an Individual
Again, with the Prime Minister, the first time I met him was in the elevator going to see Jim Flaherty.
Yes, I know Andrew Pickersgill. He was the office manager of McKinsey in Canada.
5:25 p.m.
Conservative
Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB
Okay. What you're telling us is that you weren't involved in pitching the Canadian government on business opportunities. Presumably it would have been Andrew's role, as the lead on Canadian operations, to lead that sort of work.
5:30 p.m.
As an Individual
I don't know. Again, I wasn't involved in any of those.... You should ask him.
5:30 p.m.
Conservative
Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB
Okay.
What role did Mr. Pickersgill play in relation to the financial advisory council on economic growth?
5:30 p.m.
As an Individual
What Andrew did was to ensure we had analysts to provide the data and information needed for the growth council to be able to help in terms of what we were looking at.
5:30 p.m.
Conservative
Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB
Andrew was working with you on the growth council. His work on potentially pitching the Government of Canada on business is something you're not aware of either way. I want to note for the committee's sake—and maybe you want to comment on this—that I've accessed an email from a Kevin d'Entremont at McKinsey, obtained through ATIP, that's pitching the Government of Canada on contracts, offering to connect members of the government with Mr. Pickersgill, and noting in the course of that email the work he did with you on the financial advisory council.
You may not be the link, but it seems that Mr. Pickersgill, who was involved both in the advisory council and in being a vendor to the government, was involved in both aspects of that operation.
Do you want to comment on that?
5:30 p.m.
As an Individual
I think you should ask him when he's here. My other comment is that there is a rigorous evaluation process to look at whether or not the work would occur.
5:30 p.m.
Conservative
Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB
We know there have been many cases of sole-sourcing, but I appreciate that we've established...and Mr. Pickersgill, I think, would be someone worth bringing to the committee.
Mr. Barton, following the initial invasion of Ukraine by Russia in 2014 and during your tenure at McKinsey, McKinsey continued to work closely with Russian banks and state-affiliated companies, including those that were subject to western sanctions. McKinsey was doing work for National Defence in Canada and the United States and other western countries while it was also cultivating a close relationship with authoritarian powers—Russia, China and Saudi Arabia. Can you assure this committee that analysts working for National Defence did not also participate in any projects involving state-affiliated entities in Russia and China?
5:30 p.m.
As an Individual
Absolutely. I have no idea about what was done in terms of what you're saying on the Russian military side, but I know there are very strict conflict requirements and standards in countries that you work in, so McKinsey would have to follow those.
5:30 p.m.
Conservative
Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB
Would it ever have happened, for instance in the United States, that the same analyst did work for Purdue Pharma and for the FDA at the same time?
5:30 p.m.
Conservative
Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB
Would that be a conflict of interest if it had happened?
5:30 p.m.
As an Individual
I think there is very good testimony from Bob Sternfels, who is the current managing partner, to a committee discussing that. I'm not familiar with that, but I know that—
5:30 p.m.
Conservative
Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB
You were leading McKinsey at the time though. Is that right?
5:30 p.m.
Conservative
Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB
You led McKinsey through their advice to Purdue. It was around the time you departed that the relationship between McKinsey and Purdue ended. The New York Times has reported that there were analysts who worked for both the FDA in the U.S. and for Purdue Pharma at the same time.
You're telling us that McKinsey had stringent conflict of interest rules, but you had analysts who were simultaneously working for drug manufacturers and the FDA. Did that ever happen in Canada?