Evidence of meeting #49 for Government Operations and Estimates in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was know.
A video is available from Parliament.
5:40 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley
I'm afraid I have to interrupt you again, Mr. Barton. Our time is up. These little rounds go by quickly.
Mr. Johns, you have two and a half minutes.
5:40 p.m.
NDP
Gord Johns NDP Courtenay—Alberni, BC
Mr. Barton, you're well aware there's a toxic drug crisis—an epidemic—happening in our country. People are dying in my riding—people I know. Many people's first exposure to opioids is when they get a prescription from a doctor.
Are you familiar with any of the instances in which McKinsey & Company—either in Canada or in the United States—advised clients on how to boost the sales of opioids such as OxyContin, whether through communications strategies, media advisory services or other marketing advice?
5:40 p.m.
As an Individual
As I said about the opioid situation.... I want to acknowledge where McKinsey did work on that, particularly with one institution—with Purdue. We did work on that. The work was lawful, but it obviously fell far short of the standards of what we did. I've acknowledged that I feel.... Didn't I just say I feel very badly about that?
We shouldn't have done it, but I think there's a difference between that issue—which is a mistake—and saying we were the architect of a broader program.
5:40 p.m.
NDP
Gord Johns NDP Courtenay—Alberni, BC
Right now, you can look at the court decision where McKinsey agreed to pay $600 million in a lawsuit because thousands of people died as a result of the cutthroat marketing of opioids.
My question to you is this. Do you think it's appropriate for the federal government of Canada to give millions of dollars of taxpayers' money in contracts to a company that is responsible for, or participated in, the deaths of thousands of people? Do you think that's ethical? Do you think those are values espoused by any government in this country—doing business with a company with that track record?
5:40 p.m.
As an Individual
The first thing I would say is that, again, I acknowledge there was work done on the opioid side. I do not believe you can say that McKinsey is responsible for the whole piece, so—
5:45 p.m.
NDP
Gord Johns NDP Courtenay—Alberni, BC
Here's a question for you: Do you think it's appropriate for a for-profit company to create medical advice that is counter to the needs of the public health care system? Give me a yes or no.
5:45 p.m.
As an Individual
What you want to look at is the capability of the firm and what they do. The reputation of McKinsey is much broader than that—
5:45 p.m.
NDP
Gord Johns NDP Courtenay—Alberni, BC
Is that even a question? It's a simple yes-or-no answer: Do you think it's okay for a company to give advice that is counter to a public health care system?
5:45 p.m.
As an Individual
Look, I think you're trying to make it a simple question. I think there are many aspects—
5:45 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley
I'm afraid that is our time.
Mr. Johns, you'll have one more round after this, to continue.
Mr. Genuis, you have five minutes.
5:45 p.m.
Conservative
Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I understand that McKinsey is a large company, and I get that as the big boss, you didn't necessarily know everything that was happening—every letter mailed, and so forth—but you must have known certain things. Certainly, you're responsible for the culture that existed at the company.
To follow Mr. Johns' questions, you've acknowledged that something happened that shouldn't have happened with respect to Purdue Pharma. I would like to know what you think happened that shouldn't have happened, and who you think is responsible for that.
When did you first become aware of the work your company was doing for Purdue Pharma?
5:45 p.m.
As an Individual
I became aware of that work after I had left the leadership role in McKinsey. That's when I heard about that work. Again, that's not an excuse. I'm just saying that I heard about it when there was litigation beginning to occur. That's when I first heard about it.
5:45 p.m.
Conservative
Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB
You left the leadership role, from what I understand, in 2018.
5:45 p.m.
Conservative
Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB
McKinsey started working for Purdue Pharma in 2004. Are you really telling this committee, on a file that literally dozens of senior partners were working on, that you as the managing partner had no idea about such a prominent and potentially controversial client that the firm had for 15 years?
5:45 p.m.
As an Individual
I've explained before. There are 3,000 client engagements going on at any particular given time—
5:45 p.m.
Conservative
Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB
That's right, but they weren't selling socks in southern Ontario. These were people who were doing billions of dollars in business, who caused the opioid crisis, who invented OxyContin and who invented modern pharmaceutical advertising. They were your client for 15 years. Are you saying you had no idea they were a client? Did you know any of your clients?
5:45 p.m.
As an Individual
I don't know all of them, no. That's totally not.... I don't think you understand.
5:45 p.m.
Conservative
Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB
If you had no idea that you were working for Purdue, then what did you do all day as managing director?
5:45 p.m.
As an Individual
I think maybe you should spend some time and understand how a consulting firm works.
5:45 p.m.
Conservative
Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB
I would love to understand how McKinsey works, because right now I'm very concerned. How could you as managing partner not know the name of a client, who, by the way, in 2007, pleaded guilty to misbranding its product?
Did someone at some point not think, “We're taking on this client that pleaded guilty for misbranding its product; we're offering to help them sell more of that product, and we're making proposals that include paying bonuses to pharmacists for overdose deaths and that include proposals to go around traditional pharmacies by creating mail-in pharmacies”? All of these proposals were coming forward. Did nobody think that maybe they should loop in the managing director, given the reputational implications for the company?
Is that what happens at McKinsey, sir?
5:45 p.m.
As an Individual
Well, in this case it did, and guess what? McKinsey has learned from that and figured out, precisely because of what you said.... This had been a long-term client.
There are very rigorous processes for becoming a client, whether it should work or not, and what was learned from that was that there should have been more challenge coming from the pharma practice. In a pharma practice, there are hundreds of clients.
5:45 p.m.
Conservative
Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB
I guess one other way to put it is this: Were you aware of any clients involved in opioid manufacturing? J&J has been sued over this. Were you aware that there was a pharma practice, and did you maybe know some of the clients but not others?
5:45 p.m.
As an Individual
I knew of the some of the clients in there, but as for the opioids and our being anywhere involved in that, I did not know that, and there are other organizations, like Walmart. There are many people who were involved, unfortunately, in this whole situation, and that—