Government Operations Committee on Feb. 15th, 2023

[Christiane Fox]

Can I just clarify that definitely Chinook was developed in-house? Bulk processing, AI and looking at efficiencies were part of the McKinsey work.

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

I think the deputy would also recognize that there were a lot of issues of discrimination related to AI and Chinook.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Ms. Kwan, I'm afraid we're out of time.

To get back to your last point.... Colleagues, are we fine with that? I see thumbs up.

The clerk will clarify.

I apologize. Ms. Kwan, you can't move a motion. We seem to have approval from the deputy minister that she will provide that.

I'm going to make the assumption that Mr. Johns will just take over your last 20 seconds and move that same thing. It's just to make it official, Mr. Johns.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

I move that the government table the documents that Ms. Kwan has requested throughout this meeting.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

I appreciate that. I think we all understand the intent.

The clerk will follow up with you, Ms. Fox.

I'm afraid that is your time.

Minister, we have just 10 more minutes. I appreciate your staying a bit longer.

We have Mr. Barrett and then Mr. Bains for five minutes each.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

Thanks, Chair.

Thanks Minister and officials for joining us today.

Ms. Fox, it's nice to see you at committee again.

Minister, did you have the opportunity to review any of the issues that were raised when your cabinet colleague Minister Jaczek was before this committee with respect to some of the practices that McKinsey has engaged in? They are specifically with respect to the opioid crisis in the United States, their corporate conduct with respect to the location of their retreat in China near a concentration camp and the scandals that they've been involved with in South Africa and France.

Did you have the opportunity to watch those proceedings, or have you since become familiar with what was discussed?

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

I did not watch the proceedings myself. I learned of some of what was discussed and heard some other examples that were similar in kind to those you've listed during today's committee hearing.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

Minister, do you support the immigration policies of the last or current U.S. administration?

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

I'm not focused on American immigration policies unless and in so far as they intersect with Canada's national interest. In that case, I'm not focused on whether I support their policies but on developing ours to respond in kind.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

I'd like to ask you about policy at the U.S.-Mexico border. We've seen images over the last couple of years of women, children and men detained in cages.

Would you say that is supportable or not supportable, in your estimation?

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

At the time, I had certain criticisms that I spoke publicly about with regard to the situation that took place at that particular moment.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

Okay.

Have you seen reports, or are you familiar with reports, about the U.S. government cutting food and medical care to women, children and men who are detained at the border, or other controversial practices of the ICE service in the United States?

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

I've heard some different examples with regard to ICE in the United States, not the specific instances that you just raised with me now.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

Is there—

[Irek Kusmierczyk, Liberal, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Excuse me, Mr. Chair. I have a point of order.

Is there relevance to questions regarding American immigration policies? I ask my honourable colleague to just state the relevance of that.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

I assume we're on stopped time to have this chat.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

We are, yes.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

Great.

Mr. Chair, our colleague across the way will, if he's patient for just a moment longer, see that—as I use my time to talk about immigration policy with the immigration minister on a study about consultants—there seems to be a connection between the folks who advised the United States on its immigration policies and this minister's department, so it's very important that there's an understanding that the architects of policies in the United States have been given tens of millions of dollars by this minister's department.

That company is McKinsey, so that's certainly germane to the study—

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Okay. I accept the relevance.

You have two and a half minutes left.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

Okay.

I should have given a spoiler alert, Minister.

McKinsey was responsible for advising the U.S. government on those specific policies I referenced and some of which you've commented publicly on and, if you weren't before, are now familiar with.

How can we be sure that the folks who crafted those policies are not employed to work for IRCC in their role as consultants?

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

Look, this is an important question. We have standards that are put in place that allow companies to qualify as bidders on federal contracts. They are designed to protect against certain kinds of bad actors gaining favour from the federal government.

My understanding is that those processes were followed. I think it's important to not necessarily conflate certain different potential corporate entities or business organizations that operate in different jurisdictions because I really do feel strongly, for reasons that are tied deeply to my community, that we need to be attributing individual responsibility wherever possible for people who run afoul of the rules and also, to the extent that the law has provided a process to punish corporate actors, that we follow those rules.

My understanding is that the rules through the PSPC process were, in fact, followed. Does there need to be work on individual accountability where people run afoul of moral norms? In most instances, yes, but I hesitate, without having the full information of the present circumstances, to place judgment upon what you're asking me to.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

Do you think that McKinsey is an ethical company?

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

I actually don't think we can ascribe ethics to companies.

If you'll indulge me for 30 seconds, Michael—

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

That would be the balance of my time, so in giving your—

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

I'll give you the extra 30 seconds and stick around if I need to, if the chair is okay...?