Evidence of meeting #53 for Government Operations and Estimates in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was work.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Christiane Fox  Deputy Minister, Department of Citizenship and Immigration
Clerk of the Committee  Ms. Aimée Belmore

4:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley

Good afternoon, everyone. I call the meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 53 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Government Operations and Estimates.

Pursuant to the motion adopted by the committee on Wednesday, January 18, 2022, the committee is meeting on the study of the federal government consulting contracts awarded to McKinsey & Company.

I'm informing the committee that all witnesses appearing by video conference have completed the required connection tests in advance of the meeting.

Quickly, at the very end, before we start the subcommittee, there are a couple of items I have to go over that I need feedback on from the committee. I just need a couple of minutes then, please, and then we'll go on to the subcommittee.

We'll start by welcoming Minister Fraser.

Welcome to OGGO. I've been here seven years and we haven't seen you before, so welcome to your inaugural appearance with OGGO.

I understand you have an opening statement. Go ahead, for five minutes, please. The floor is yours, Minister.

February 15th, 2023 / 4:30 p.m.

Central Nova Nova Scotia

Liberal

Sean Fraser LiberalMinister of Immigration

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Perhaps in over seven years, the reason why you've not seen me is that I've only been in this position for a small fraction of that time. I'm happy to make my inaugural appearance.

Thank you, Chair and esteemed colleagues, for the invitation to join today's discussion about IRCC's work with McKinsey & Company.

Folks, I think everybody in this room is familiar with some of the challenges Canadian businesses are facing as they seek to recover from the COVID-19 pandemic. We could pore over the labour force survey statistics to figure out the extent of the labour shortage in Canada if we wanted to, but my view is that you can figure out the reality by walking down the main street of almost any community in Canada. You're going to find “help wanted” signs in the windows.

A lot of this is happening at a time when immigration already represents an extraordinary majority of our growth in the Canadian labour force. We need to continue to train our domestic workforce, there's no question, but it's not possible to meet the needs of the economy in the short or long term without embracing immigration as a key part of our strategy for growth. The fact of the matter is that we need more workers in just about every sector in every region of this country.

In November this past year, I announced that Canada is going to be increasing our annual immigration levels targets from 431,000 this past year to 465,000 this year and going to 500,000 by 2025.

These targets are supported by a plan that will capitalize on new tools to meet the needs of the Canadian economy while making it easier to settle newcomers in the communities with the greatest absorption capacity.

It's not unusual that a department might seek external advice on how to face certain challenges with its various departments or to achieve ambitious goals. However, to be clear, the advice we may have received over the course of a couple of contracts with McKinsey prior to my appointment to this position didn't touch on immigration policy, but rather efforts to digitize the process through which applications are processed at IRCC.

For what it's worth and for the sake of clarity, since being appointed as minister—or before, for that matter—I haven't had a relationship with representatives of McKinsey or Dominic Barton, if anybody was curious. The company did not advise me directly or influence the decision-making around our immigration levels plan. I know that has been the source of some commentary, but I would suggest it's without basis.

The decision made on immigration levels, the number of newcomers we welcome to Canada and how we envision the future of our country's population ultimately falls to me to determine in my capacity as the Minister of Immigration, Refugees and Citizenship. Although this is a decision I've arrived at independently, I take advice from a number of different groups, whether that's department officials or, I would argue most importantly, organizations, stakeholders, provincial and territorial governments, businesses and people across Canada who understand the needs of Canada over the course of the next generation and how immigration may play a key role in determining our country's future. It was on the basis of those conversations and my independent reflection that we landed on appropriate levels for immigration as published in the immigration levels plan.

McKinsey was engaged—as I mentioned, before I was appointed as minister—on two instances through an open bidding process that was run by the department under its authority to do so. Those particular contracts were designed to provide advice around the modernization of the immigration system and to enhance digital services, which are rolling out as we speak, although I would suggest there are greater benefits to be seen in the years ahead as we move to a fully digitized system.

Over the course of the past few years, even pre-dating the pandemic, an unprecedented number of people have been choosing to come to Canada.

On the one hand, that's great for our country, but on the other hand, there's no doubt that IRCC's aging systems and processes simply couldn't keep up with the increased demand.

Like all departments and agencies, IRCC relies on different partnerships to improve the way we serve clients. Sometimes we have to rely on third parties to provide specialized expertise for specific and typically time-limited purposes.

That's why, in 2018, the department determined it needed specific expertise to review how it serves clients and to recommend improvements. This resulted in two contracts between 2018 and 2020 being awarded to McKinsey. It represented in those particular years, for what it's worth, less than 1% of the department's operating expenditures.

The first contract provided an assessment and a set of recommendations to improve digital and other services and to begin the digital transformation process, which is ongoing today.

While the department moved ahead to implement some of those recommendations, it established the second contract, again, on a competitive basis. This was to grow its internal capacity, help IRCC employees gain specialized expertise themselves and accelerate the department's ability to carry on with the work to transform the digital system that we're moving towards, with a focus on improving client service.

The work carried out as part of these contracts identified gaps and opportunities to improve service delivery. It also led to the development of a transformation strategy, complete with a step-by-step plan, and two new operating models: one to deliver more efficient processes and another to deliver digital solutions for IRCC's clients.

Folks, I expect I'm getting close to the end of my five minutes, so perhaps I'll end my comments there.

4:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley

You're past it, if you could finish up.

4:35 p.m.

Liberal

Sean Fraser Liberal Central Nova, NS

That's fine, Mr. Chair.

I think you have a flavour for my commentary today. I'm happy to move to the questions that committee members may have.

Thank you.

4:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley

Thank you.

Mrs. Kusie, you have six minutes, please.

4:35 p.m.

Conservative

Stephanie Kusie Conservative Calgary Midnapore, AB

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you, Minister, for being here today.

Minister, in an article published by the CBC on January 4, 2023, two public servants in your department came forward about the role McKinsey had been playing in policy decisions of the department. One source told the media that “McKinsey was an idea from the government. The policy was decided for civil servants. It causes a lot of operational instability”.

Why is your government and why are you, as minister, allowing a firm such as McKinsey to make policy decisions instead of public servants?

4:35 p.m.

Liberal

Sean Fraser Liberal Central Nova, NS

For the sake of clarity, I would certainly dispute that McKinsey is making policy decisions on behalf of the government. That is not a fact.

For what it's worth, you framed your question as “why would I, as minister”. We're dealing with two contracts that were awarded internally by the department, before my appointment to this position.

In any event, this is an ordinary exercise where the department was seeking to grow its capacity to offer digital services. We're in the midst of a major digital transformation within IRCC that I do believe will end up with a better product for IRCC's clients, who are people seeking to be reunited with families or coming to seek opportunities.

I do believe the movement to a digital transformation within our system is the right one.

4:35 p.m.

Conservative

Stephanie Kusie Conservative Calgary Midnapore, AB

Minister, that's not what I asked. I was asking you specifically about McKinsey's implication in determining policy for your department.

Why is your government allowing McKinsey to make policy decisions instead of public servants?

4:35 p.m.

Liberal

Sean Fraser Liberal Central Nova, NS

Mrs. Kusie, that is not happening.

If there's a specific policy you would like to ask the origins of, I would be happy to give my perspective, but the decisions that I have made have not been made on the basis of McKinsey's direction. I can reassure you of that.

4:35 p.m.

Conservative

Stephanie Kusie Conservative Calgary Midnapore, AB

That's not what your civil servants said and that's not what the CBC reported.

The same CBC article, Minister, also said:

The IRCC sources are also critical of McKinsey's possible influence over Canada's immigration targets.

Ottawa announced a plan this fall to welcome 500,000 new permanent residents each year by 2025, with an emphasis on fostering economic growth.

The target and its stated justification follow similar conclusions in the 2016 report of the Advisory Council on Economic Growth, chaired by McKinsey's then-global head Dominic Barton.

The advisory council recommended a gradual increase in permanent immigration to 450,000 people per year to respond to labour market dynamics. At the time, Canada was accepting about 320,000 permanent residents.

John McCallum, the immigration minister at the time, expressed his reservations about the “huge figure” presented in the report.

But one of the sources at IRCC said the department was quickly told that the advisory council's report was a foundational plan.

Again, why doesn't the department have the capacity or the expertise to set policy around immigration targets rather than needing them to be recommended by McKinsey?

Minister, it was stated in reporting by the CBC that it is not the Department of Immigration that was setting this policy; it was McKinsey.

4:40 p.m.

Liberal

Sean Fraser Liberal Central Nova, NS

With great respect to Mrs. Kusie, as the person who sets these policies, I can tell you that I wasn't informed by McKinsey's work and didn't meet with them in my development of this past year's immigration levels plan. As I mentioned during my opening remarks, this is driven by the need for businesses to find workers, to identify the skills that will be necessary to grow the Canadian economy for the next generation and to make sure we're doing what we can to continue to be a leader on humanitarian issues and reuniting families.

The allegation that McKinsey is making decisions around immigration levels policy is false. The truth is that there were two contracts between 2018 and 2020 that were geared towards improvements to the digital processing of cases and movement towards a fully digitized system at IRCC, but it is not a true allegation that McKinsey has somehow been able to set the federal government's immigration policy.

4:40 p.m.

Conservative

Stephanie Kusie Conservative Calgary Midnapore, AB

Then, Minister, you're going against the words of your public servants. You're going against what they are saying to the media. You're going against what the media is reporting. Frankly, after seeing the way your government just voted in the House on Bill C-290, it's not very surprising. It's not surprising, and I see the member who passed the PMB is agreeing with that. This is not surprising. Considering the response that we saw from that poor gentleman from Afghanistan in the chamber last week, it's not surprising to me that you're disregarding the words of your public servants.

You are also contradicting the words of not only your predecessor, Minister McCallum. You're also contradicting the words of the former finance minister Bill Morneau, who also said in his book, “We developed a number of good ideas and concepts. They included setting immigration targets and expanding the number of scientists available to work on new developments that could either support existing economic activities or inspire new ones.”

You're saying one thing, Minister. Your public servants, the media and your predecessors are saying something else.

4:40 p.m.

Liberal

Sean Fraser Liberal Central Nova, NS

I don't believe there was a question in that intervention, Mr. Chair.

My honest belief is that Canada needs more people. I make the argument at every instance I have in public, including at an event with the Construction Association of Nova Scotia this morning, that the reasons we need more people are largely driven by economics and demographics I am concerned about. With respect, there are many thousands of people who work in the department, the most senior officials—

4:40 p.m.

Conservative

Stephanie Kusie Conservative Calgary Midnapore, AB

They're driven by outside consultants, including McKinsey.

Thank you, Chair.

4:40 p.m.

Liberal

Sean Fraser Liberal Central Nova, NS

Mr. Chair, it's hard to understand why when it's my turn to speak I'm being interrupted by the questioner.

4:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley

Minister, I'm afraid that is our time, but I'm sure your colleague will allow you the opportunity.

Mr. Jowhari you have six minutes, please.

4:40 p.m.

Liberal

Majid Jowhari Liberal Richmond Hill, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Welcome to the minister and the officials.

Minister, thank you very much for all the work you're doing in helping us navigate through some challenging times.

Minister, I'm going to ask questions, many of which you've already addressed in your opening remarks, but consider this an opportunity to expand, to clarify and to solidify your responses for the record one more time.

Minister, why, in your opinion, was McKinsey hired prior to your assuming this role? What role was it playing for the department?

4:40 p.m.

Liberal

Sean Fraser Liberal Central Nova, NS

I think it was straightforwardly explained in my introductory remarks, but for the sake of clarity, McKinsey was engaged in 2018 and 2020 for particular kinds of work, first to assess the processes internally on how we deal with cases that come through the department and to help develop a strategy that would allow us to move towards a digital system. Subsequent to the initial work that was performed, McKinsey was retained again to help build capacity within IRCC so that we could do the work ourselves going forward to implement a digital transformation that they helped develop the guidelines around the process for.

What's important is that we understand it's ordinary for federal departments and public servants at different levels to engage consulting firms, but it's really also important to understand that this is not a displacement of the work that the public service does. When you want to deal with a time-limited initiative without expanding the overall size of the public service, that could be one reason to think about using an external group.

The other reason, which I think is essential to understand, is that it's appropriate to do so when you could use additional skills that may not currently be present within the department. There are tremendously talented public servants who have digital skills, but the retention at McKinsey actually helped us grow that pool of talent to position us better as we migrate from a largely paper-based system towards a digital system. We're starting to see certain digital features roll out, and over the next few years, we'll have a fully digital system at IRCC.

4:45 p.m.

Liberal

Majid Jowhari Liberal Richmond Hill, ON

Thank you, Minister.

I would like to get your input on another thought. As an MP who has a lot of immigration cases coming to his office—and I have been there for seven years—I have seen the challenges that we've had. The levels have increased. The complexity of the cases has increased, and the demand has increased.

Is it possible...? I'm trying to put the previous minister of immigration, although it goes way back, into perspective. Had we not done anything, had we not changed our processes, had we not moved on to the digital transformation that your department, your ministry, is embarking on, would we be in a position to be able to accept the number of immigrants that we are accepting in order to deal with the shortages we are having?

4:45 p.m.

Liberal

Sean Fraser Liberal Central Nova, NS

Look, we live in a very different world from when we first were elected in 2015, Mr. Jowhari. The reality is that, with the volume of work we're doing at IRCC, not just in our immigration levels plan, which processes permanent residents, but also with the significant expansion of the international student program and the increased reliance on people here with a temporary status to work—and, frankly, the fact that Canada has become a major destination for visitors around the world—there's no way we would be able to meet the demands of the system.

In particular, there's a major thing that has happened between then and now. The COVID-19 pandemic had a severe impact on the immigration system. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that when you close a border to protect public health against the spread of a virus, you can have an impact on the folks who were involved in bringing people across those borders.

What has happened is that, for a period of time, we had to stop hosting citizenship ceremonies, for example. Part of the work that was informed by McKinsey helped us to evolve the digitization of the citizenship program, and now we're producing record numbers of citizenship grants on a monthly basis.

It's just one example of the kinds of efficiencies we're starting to see now across different immigration streams. If we want to continue to grow our immigration ambition, which I believe is a good thing for Canada, we're going to need to embrace digital technologies as a government that wants to do business in the 21st century.

4:45 p.m.

Liberal

Majid Jowhari Liberal Richmond Hill, ON

Thank you, Minister.

With about a minute and 15 seconds left, I'm going to ask several other rapid questions you have already responded to. I just want to get them on the record.

Did you or any of your ministry staff at any time meet with McKinsey during the time it was providing its services?

4:45 p.m.

Liberal

Sean Fraser Liberal Central Nova, NS

I haven't, personally. I would have to get back to you to see if there were any other meetings. Perhaps in the next round I could point to our deputy as someone to ask about engagement with the department.

4:45 p.m.

Liberal

Majid Jowhari Liberal Richmond Hill, ON

You were very clear on this, and I'm going to ask again. Did at any time the output of the work that McKinsey was hired for influence any decision that you have made during your time serving as a minister currently—I would dare to say in the past—and in the future?

4:45 p.m.

Liberal

Sean Fraser Liberal Central Nova, NS

It has helped set the stage for policies towards movement from a legacy-based, paper-based system towards a digital system, but only on the processes for my part. The immigration policies around how many people should be welcomed or changes to specific programs have not been informed by the work that McKinsey was contracted to perform.

4:45 p.m.

Liberal

Majid Jowhari Liberal Richmond Hill, ON

My last question is—