Government Operations Committee on Feb. 15th, 2023

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

I'm afraid that was your last question—for now.

Mr. Garon, we'll go to you for six minutes, but before we do, I want to congratulate you on the passing of your private member's bill regarding the protection of whistle-blowers. I do have to say that, as someone who worked on the original study from OGGO, I was extremely disappointed that those who worked on it from the government side refused to vote for it. However, I'm very pleased that it passed. It will be fantastic for whistle-blowers. Thank you, sir.

Go ahead for six minutes.

[Jean-Denis Garon, Bloc, Mirabel, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

It's always a pleasure to work on strengthening public sector integrity.

Minister, McKinsey is synonymous with the Enron scandal; the commercial papers; corruption in South Africa; the tobacco industry in the United States and defending its interests; jailed dissidents in Saudi Arabia; the opioid crisis in the United States, during which McKinsey managed to drive up opioid sales; the illegal implications in a presidential campaign in France; working for the Chinese military while at the same time working for the American military in Taiwan.

You've confirmed that McKinsey was advising your department on ways to operationalize your policies. Are you okay with that?

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

Some of the examples you listed, obviously, touch on questionable facts—

[Jean-Denis Garon, Bloc, Mirabel, QC]

Minister, the question is clear: Are you okay with these people having access to information from your department, yes or no?

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

Look, with respect, I disagree. I realize you're trying to have some gotcha moments.

The reality is that, when you start to paint people with a brush that worked for a particular company in another jurisdiction, I think sometimes you give an excuse to the bad actors to get away with not being held responsible for their own activities. We have a—

[Jean-Denis Garon, Bloc, Mirabel, QC]

Mr. Chair—

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

Mr. Chair, I'm having a difficult time when we can't.... It seems I'm being spoken over.

[Jean-Denis Garon, Bloc, Mirabel, QC]

Mr. Chair—

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

I apologize, sir.

[Jean-Denis Garon, Bloc, Mirabel, QC]

Mr. Chair, I've already lost 20 seconds with the minister. I understand that the minister and I disagree on the facts. That's his position, and I accept it.

The public servants working in your department stated that they were uncomfortable with the new immigration targets and that they opposed them, but that certain people working for McKinsey inside the department had some influence.

Who's right? Is it you, with your official version of the facts, or the folks who work inside the machine?

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

First, Mr. Chair, if it means I need to extend my appearance by 30 seconds so we can have a conversation in which we don't speak over one another.... It's difficult in a virtual environment. I mean no offence to my colleague.

On the substance, I can assure you, from my perspective as the person who holds the pen in designing the immigration levels plan, the influence that was exerted upon me was from the Canadian business community. It was from workers who were concerned that they wouldn't have a job if their employer closed and communities, like the one I come from, that were worried about seeing young people moving away. It was from provincial governments, territorial governments and other organizations. I don't believe there was internal pressure from McKinsey that influenced my immigration levels plan one bit.

[Jean-Denis Garon, Bloc, Mirabel, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

So the minister has confirmed that the whistle-blowing public servants may not have been telling the truth.

Minister, by not standing in your place when the vote occurred, you recently opposed an amendment that would have improved whistle-blower protections.

Doesn't that make you uncomfortable? Do you really believe it's good practice not to increase their protection in a more transparent public service?

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

I'm sorry, but I think the member is conflating multiple issues here. I make no allegations about officials who have not been named who have suggested that they were in disagreement with my immigration levels plan. If you're interested in the perspective of the department's officials, we have some sitting in the room with you.

To our deputy, if you'd like to interject to present the views of the department yourself—

[Jean-Denis Garon, Bloc, Mirabel, QC]

Mr. Chair, the minister misunderstood the question.

If he spoke better French, maybe things would be easier.

You recently opposed—

[Anthony Housefather, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

Aren't you going to say something, Mr. Chair?

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

No, it is the member's time.

[Majid Jowhari, Liberal, Richmond Hill, ON]

It's the member's time, but we have to have some decorum. Come on.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Please, Mr. Housefather, it is the member's time. I'll allow him to continue.

[Jean-Denis Garon, Bloc, Mirabel, QC]

The member for Mount Royal and French—

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

I would suggest that we maintain decorum.

[Jean-Denis Garon, Bloc, Mirabel, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Minister, I'd like to raise another question with you now.

We met with the procurement ombudsman recently and asked him whether the special auditor function he was given would allow him to identify if the work that the minister or the department outsourced could've been accomplished by our skilled public service, instead.

The ombudsman's response was that his job was to verify whether the duplication of work was done in compliance with the rules, but that there wasn't anyone in the government that could currently verify whether, in your department, the work that was given to McKinsey could've been handled by our public servants.

Are you not bothered by the fact that, to this day, no comprehensive auditing role was attributed?

I'm not making any of this up. The ombudsman told us as much two days ago.

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

Mr. Chair, first I want to say that I'm very happy to be learning French. It's a new language for me, but I've made some very real progress and I intend to keep working at it.

Parliamentary privilege allows members to speak in the language of their choice. When highly technical subjects are involved, it's essential for me to be able to explain myself in my first language.

All of this said, I will continue to work to improve my French. If the honourable member would like to engage me in that practice as some of his colleagues do, I would—

[Jean-Denis Garon, Bloc, Mirabel, QC]

What's your answer to the question, then, Minister?

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

To his question, I think it's important that we come to understand that the reason McKinsey was engaged was in large part to expand the capacity of the department when it comes to offering the transformation towards digital services. Should people disagree with me on that, they're free to do so, but I don't view the award that was granted back in 2020 to be one that reflected redundancies that existed within the department already.

[Jean-Denis Garon, Bloc, Mirabel, QC]

The practice at McKinsey & Company is to not put their logo on every document and to usurp the logos of the clients they're working with. They could, for instance, use the Government of Canada's logo or that of a government department on the documents they produce.

Can you solemnly affirm to the committee that McKinsey & Company used their own logo on all of the documents related to the contracts with your department and that they never used the Government of Canada's logo on any of the documents they produced?