Government Operations Committee on Feb. 15th, 2023

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

First, Mr. Housefather, I must thank you for your comment on the quality of my French. Support from my colleagues in the House of Commons is important to me.

On the specific issue of immigration levels, the situation in Quebec is very different from the situation outside of Quebec. We have an accord with the province of Quebec, which grants Quebec the power to select all its economic immigrants, in addition to allowing it to determine its overall immigration levels.

The situation outside Quebec is very different. The federal government sets immigration levels in its annual plan and proposes strategies to protect the demographic weight of francophones.

Last year was the first time in 20 years that a government reached the 4.4% target. I think that we can go even higher. It's essential to promote the French language and culture and protect the demographic weight of francophones.

Perhaps I need to improve the quality of my French, but I understand the importance of protecting the demographic weight of francophones, be it in Quebec or outside Quebec.

However, according to the accord with the Quebec government, it's Quebec's decision to make.

[Anthony Housefather, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

Thank you very much.

I congratulate you once again on your French. I'm really amazed.

Let me now ask you some other questions.

This is about McKinsey. Clearly there's an attempt to show here that somehow there was an unacceptable relationship between the Government of Canada and McKinsey that facilitated their getting contracts.

Minister Fraser, have you ever been involved in determining whether or not we outsource a contract, since you've been Minister of Immigration?

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

No, it's dealt with at the departmental level.

If you'll allow me, we actually publish a list of all the stakeholders the department engages with for setting our immigration policy. It's on our website. If people want to check it out, feel free.

[Anthony Housefather, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

I'll ask the deputy minister this: Can you please confirm that ever, since you've been in the department, you've not have any political interference with determining whether we outsource or not and who we contract with?

[Christiane Fox]

I can confirm that we have not had any discussions with the minister around who we contract with.

[Anthony Housefather, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

Perfect.

Minister Fraser, let's come back to Dominic Barton.

Dominic Barton had been brought up. We were trying to hear before that somehow Dominic Barton's friendship with somebody.... Even though he came here and said the Prime Minister wasn't among his 50 best friends, he didn't have the Prime Minister's phone number, he never went out to dinner with the Prime Minister and he never socialized with the Prime Minister, somehow this friendship led to these contracts.

You didn't know the year that Dominic Barton left McKinsey. He left McKinsey in early 2018. Both of the contracts with your department happened after that date. Dominic Barton had also disclosed that, when he left McKinsey, he no longer had any financial interest in McKinsey because he had to sell back his partnership interest.

Would you—just as a logical person—consider that it would make sense, if this friendship was so great, that the number of contracts with McKinsey increased drastically after Dominic Barton left McKinsey but didn't really increase very much between 2015 and 2018?

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

From my own perspective, there have been two contracts issued on a competitive basis since his departure.

I understand that the previous government actually had some dealings with McKinsey as well. I don't sense a pattern about his presence within a particular role at McKinsey or otherwise having an impact on this one way or the other.

[Anthony Housefather, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

Right.

Coming back, the professional public service is the one who makes these decisions, not you and not ministers.

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

It is extremely important to have that continue to be the case.

[Anthony Housefather, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

Now let me come back to—

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Thank you, Mr. Housefather.

Mrs. Kusie, you have five minutes, please.

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

Thank you very much, Chair.

Respectfully, Minister, things just aren't adding up here. We have a public service that is saying that McKinsey is implicated. We have the media saying that McKinsey is implicated in deciding the policy. We have two former ministers, one of them your predecessor, saying that McKinsey was implicated in deciding policy—poor policy at that—for your department.

You're writing it off. You're saying you don't know anything about this. Did no one brief you? Someone must have told you where these numbers came from originally. Guess what: The media and your public service and your predecessor are saying they came from McKinsey.

Whether or not you're aware, or whether or not you're willing to admit it, this is what everyone else is saying. For you to even deny what happened previous to your arrival into this position.... I get it. You've only been there since December 2021. It's easy to say that you don't know. It's the same with your deputy minister, who's only been there since September 2022. It's really easy to say that you take no responsibility for anything that happened before you.

This is the picture you're painting today. It sounds as though you are going against—and it's either ignorance or denial—what the public service, the media and your predecessors are saying. That's not a good enough answer for me. That's not a good enough answer for the official opposition. That's not a good enough answer for, I believe, all of the opposition parties on this side of the table. It's not a good enough answer for Canadians, Minister, that you would say, “I don't know. Everyone is saying this, but I have no idea about it.”

Now, your colleague on the other side of the table is trying to save your bacon, saying, “Forget McKinsey. We're just here to talk about service delivery.” Guess what: You're failing on that as well, with 2.1 million in the backlog. Even if you did create these targets, which everyone in the public service, the media and in the former cabinet is saying, then no matter who created these numbers, you're failing. You're failing not only in the historical background or the corporate knowledge not having been passed on...or trying to deny it, which everyone on this side of the table and those in the public service and the media believe you're doing.

In addition to that, you're also failing in the service delivery. There's no way you can deny that, regardless of the he-said-she-said, or John Reynolds said this, or someone else said that. You can't deny that.

I mean, what do you have to say to Canadians when you are admitting that you have no knowledge about the corporate background of the numbers and how you came to arrive at these numbers? You just show up here and say, “Oh, I don't know,” and then your colleague tries to say, “Oh, well, we're here about service delivery.” But you're failing on that too.

What do you say to Canadians regarding both of those things, Minister?

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

Mr. Chair, how much time do I have to answer this question? I would like to address it with ample time to dispel the many myths and, frankly, nonsense that I was just made to sit through,

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

That sounds like mansplaining, Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

I will repeat what I said earlier about decorum, Minister. You have a minute and five, please.

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

Thank you.

I do have respect for my colleague, whom I've sat on committee with. What I find—

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

I think you speak French very well. It's just as good as mine. It's not entirely bilingual, but, you know, it's a solid level C.

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

I appreciate it. I'm working on it.

First, the allegation from your intervention, Ms. Kusie, that I can discern is that unnamed sources in either the public service or the media disagree with my immigration policy writ large. I don't know the nature of the allegation you're making. If the allegation is that they disagree with my immigration levels plan, I have not seen a confirmed source. I don't doubt there are some people who have spoken out because they think differently than I do. If you and I disagree on whether doubling the level of immigration compared to 2015 is a good idea, we should have that debate on the floor of the House of Commons.

With respect to my institutional knowledge of what took place during my time as an MP before I held this particular chair, I agree intensely with our government's immigration strategy. It has benefited my hometown. I am very familiar with the policies that have been implemented from 2015 up until now and continue to support them.

The particular issue that we're digging in on here is about two specific contracts in 2018 and 2020 that were focused on moving toward—

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

I'm sorry, Minister.

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

It was a policy designed by McKinsey and executed terribly, Chair.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

I'm afraid that is our time.

However, I see that next up is a member from the Liberal Party. Perhaps, you can continue with her time.

Ms. Thompson, please go ahead for five minutes.

[Joanne Thompson, Liberal, St. John's East, NL]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Welcome, Minister.

The chair can read my mind.

Would you like to continue that thought before I move to my questions, Minister?

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

Sure.

Just on the actual effectiveness of the immigration policies that we've implemented to deal with some very serious challenges facing our immigration system, I'm not going to pretend everything has been perfect, because the shock to our system that came from COVID-19, an outsized response to Ukraine and Afghanistan, and the fact that Canada became the most popular place in the world to come to in order to seek economic opportunities have put real strain on our system. We've advanced policies to put more resources in the system by hiring more than 1,250 people, to relax administrative barriers in a number of different ways and to embrace the adoption of digital technology that will speed the processes up.

The figure that Ms. Kusie raised of 2.1 million cases in the system has actually been dramatically reduced. Since this summer we've been able to reduce the number of cases in our inventory by more than half a million. We are back to the service standard we enjoyed prepandemic for family reunification cases and for federal express-entry cases. We are very close on study permits and work permits for new applications that are being made. We have some work left to do on visitor visas, which we're working very hard to advance as quickly as possible, but there is real and tangible progress that people are feeling in communities.

Does it need to go faster? Yes. Will it go faster in the future? Yes.

We're doing the hard work now and have been doing the hard work over the past year, including by adopting digital processes. There will be bumps along the way, but we're doing everything we can to get families back together more quickly, to get workers into the businesses and to allow more people to visit Canada for important life events.

[Joanne Thompson, Liberal, St. John's East, NL]

Thank you.

I do have to say that the staff in your office have been phenomenal. In my time as an MP, I've seen such growth in terms of how we've been able to move files through and just in terms of the co-operation from your office. Thank you for that.

Has the work that McKinsey completed on the transformation process impacted how you've been able to move through that backlog and bring additional staff on?

You mentioned staff numbers. Are you starting to see that having an effect on the ground? What does that look like?

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

In my view, it has started to have an impact but the full scale of its impact will not be fully revealed until we actually have a fully functioning fully digitized system operating for a few years. It will take some time to really know the extent to which the digital improvements we're making, which were tied to McKinsey's work, will actually bear fruit. The early signs that I'm observing indicate that they are having a positive impact. Whether it's from an accessibility point of view, allowing people to apply online more quickly, giving them information about their cases on their phones or having a process that allows us to leverage the global network of offices to maximize productivity, there are many ways in which movement towards the digital system is going to have a positive impact.

Some of this work could have been done internally within IRCC, but it would have taken longer, probably years longer. Given the significant uptick in volume that's been put on the department and the ministry, particularly over the course of the pandemic and since, I don't think the system could have handled such an increase in volume if we didn't continue to quickly move towards a more digital system.