Government Operations Committee on March 6th, 2023

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

I'm sorry, Minister. Is it that you don't know if those folks are involved here?

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

To be clear, I am here to answer the questions that this committee has a mandate and a scope to study around the CBSA contracts awarded to McKinsey. We've been very upfront with you about the details of those contracts.

Yes, we do have the screening protocols in place to ensure that as those contracts are awarded, they are done with integrity, ensuring the protection of our systems at the border. Yes, of course we embrace this committee's study, and we'll continue to have an important conversation about how we do that work.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

That is our time.

Go ahead, Mr. Housefather, please.

[Anthony Housefather, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

Thank you.

Thank you very much, Minister.

Thank you very much, Ms. O'Gorman and Mr. Gallivan, for being here today.

Mr. Minister, in your past life, you were a prosecutor, right?

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

Yes.

[Anthony Housefather, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

You were not a contract lawyer who delved into the intricacies of multinational contracts, right?

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

I was a federal prosecutor for about a decade. Then, afterwards, I practised privately. My area of expertise remained criminal law, with some labour and personnel employment law as well.

[Anthony Housefather, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

Ms. O'Gorman, you served with distinction at the Privy Council, the Treasury Board and Public Safety Canada. You were also not a contract lawyer, right?

[Erin O'Gorman]

No.

[Anthony Housefather, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

The answer was no, Mr. Chair, if you couldn't hear it.

Basically, if we wanted to ask you questions about what was in these contracts—for example, whether certain clauses required certain things, such as the list of clients or what the security process was—you would not be best equipped to answer that. Is that correct?

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

We work closely with Public Services and Procurement Canada to give us advice on how to craft those contracts, and the CBSA does that work in-house as well. I just would again assure you, Mr. Housefather—and everybody within the committee—that those practices are well established, and they are there to protect the integrity of the way in which we procure services outside of government.

[Anthony Housefather, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

I understand, Mr. Minister, and appreciate that. What I'm trying to establish is that if the committee has questions—reasonable questions—as to what's in the contract, you would not necessarily be the best person to respond to the clauses that we standardly put in contracts to protect Canada's security. If I were to represent to you that what happens is that the department establishes security requirements and then security experts frame contractual clauses and due diligence processes based on their expertise to ensure that the client's—the department's—security requirements are fulfilled, that would essentially be the way to do that, and we do have experts, lawyers, who do this all their days and all their lives and who could come to the committee and answer those questions. Is that correct?

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

I would agree that we have put in place rigorous protocols to protect the security and the integrity of the way in which we procure services outside of government and that those protocols serve us well, both in the context of the CBSA and right across the portfolio.

[Anthony Housefather, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

Right, and if this committee had recommendations, based on what's in the contracts and after hearing exactly what is in the contracts, we could make recommendations in our report to revise the contracts. The same would be true, I imagine, with the integrity regime.

We're all concerned about hostile foreign actors. We're all concerned about companies that may have bad actors abroad and are charged with things in South Africa, for example, such as McKinsey, but our current integrity regime doesn't provide for convictions abroad, and therefore, Mr. Minister, your department is not able to bar people from bidding for competitive contracts if they're not disqualified under our integrity regime as it is today. Is that correct?

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

Well, that is why we set up those protocols. It's to be sure that there isn't any compromise of the integrity with which we award these contracts. At the end of the day, those are decisions made independently by our non-partisan public service, and I think that's an important principle that all committee members should remember and underline as you undertake this study.

[Anthony Housefather, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

But I think, again, that part of what we're looking at is whether the integrity regime should change. It's a very logical and fair question whether or not the integrity regime should take into account actions abroad and convictions abroad, which it does for certain convictions in certain countries at certain types of levels, but that doesn't allow you as minister, or the department, to disqualify somebody if they're not currently disqualified under our own integrity regime as it is today. Is that correct?

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

I'd say two things in response.

One, I am confident in the protocols we have put in place to do this screening. Also, two, the way we screen for security is very much an ongoing deliberative process in which we work with all parliamentarians as we attempt to address and mitigate the evolving nature of threats on the landscape.

We have good systems in place. We have good protocols in place. Those protocols served us well in the context of these four contracts vis-à-vis security, and we look forward to receiving the study of this committee and any recommendations that you may make so that we can build on those protocols to protect the way in which we award contracts outside of government.

[Anthony Housefather, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

Am I done, Mr. Chair?

I have 20 seconds.

Ms. O'Gorman, for my last question, with respect to the $54 million on ArriveCAN, didn't we actually establish that some of those costs were internal costs and the number was actually a different number?

[Erin O'Gorman]

There was a different breakdown of the number, and some of the costs were internal to the departments.

[Anthony Housefather, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

That would be your time.

We are going to suspend in a moment to go in camera, but before we do, Mr. Gallivan and Ms. O'Gorman, thanks for joining us again.

Minister, before you go, I just want to make a comment and use a couple of seconds of the committee's time. There's a veteran in my riding, Jeremy Pruegger, who works for the Correctional Service. He started a program called the Incarcerated Veterans Support Resources program to help veterans in prison.

I understand, Minister, that you're going to have your folks contact him and help him out so that we can serve our veterans, even those who are incarcerated. Thank you very much for following up on that. I sincerely appreciate it, on behalf of Mr. Pruegger and the great work he is doing.

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

Mr. Chair, first, thank you. I do acknowledge receipt of the letter, which I have since shared with my staff and will share with the department. Thank you for your advocacy, and thank you to the members of the committee for the questions today and for the study of this important subject.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

That's all. We are suspended.

[Proceedings continue in camera]