Government Operations Committee on March 6th, 2023

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

Thank you.

If it's okay, Mr. Chair, with the will of the committee we request that you table the documents around McKinsey's advice in terms of staffing levels so we can get some more details of that. You outlined that, Ms. O'Gorman, I believe, or maybe you could clarify.

[Erin O'Gorman]

Sure. They're contained in the documents that were provided, and there is a reference not to staffing levels but reflecting staffing levels that existed at some of the ports of entry. It's not information that is not with the committee; it references the documents that you would have.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

That helps. Then we don't need anything more.

You disagreed with the Customs and Immigration Union's estimate of a shortage of 3,000 officers. Can you provide the committee with your estimate as to how many workers are needed to fill current vacancies across the country? Have any consulting firms aided with the staffing plans for any work sites that CBSA operates in?

[Erin O'Gorman]

I'm not aware of any outside consultants that have done that work recently for the CBSA. In terms of vacancies, that's an ongoing discussion. There are some legacy frameworks in terms of positions. We're working to clean that up to see where they're needed and where they're no longer needed. We're overlaying post-pandemic travel patterns—

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

Do you have a rough idea? You dismissed the 3,000 number.

[Erin O'Gorman]

We have not done an analysis that leads us to feel it's 3,000 vacancies.

We're also looking at post-pandemic commercial patterns. Some ports are back and higher than they were; some are not. We're working to distribute the workforce aligned with the demand and with our service standards.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

In some areas, such as investigations, intelligence, inland enforcement and hearings, the CBSA prefers to hire from outside instead of promoting from within. Can you talk about why the agency isn't relying on the expertise of its officers, who are well acquainted with the intricacies of the border, but instead is bringing in outside personnel who have less experience in the field?

[Erin O'Gorman]

We always look for opportunities to promote from within. As mentioned, for certain functions we can use the expertise that's developed in other areas, such as law enforcement investigations and intelligence analysis. The BSOs are the bedrock of our frontline and inland enforcement, but there are opportunities to bring people in with different backgrounds to complement our border service officers.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Thank you very much.

Go ahead, Mr. Barrett, for five minutes, please.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

Thanks, Chair, and thanks, Minister, Ms. O'Gorman and Mr. Gallivan for being here.

Minister, what would the impact be in terms of added personnel if you spent $7 million on recruitment, training, and deployment of frontline officers? How many personnel could you employ for $7 million?

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

It would depend very much on the position, the classification, the term, etc. I'm happy to turn that precise question to Ms. O'Gorman.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

Could you answer in about 15 seconds, if possible?

[Erin O'Gorman]

The $7 million was the contract value, and the amount spent was $4.3 million. That funding is not ongoing, so it's a bit hard to compare it to the cost if we hired people today. That money isn't ongoing in the CBSA's budget.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

There was an app pitched by McKinsey, based on other models, that could have been deployed and used by Canadian travellers and the travelling public. What was McKinsey's estimate of the cost of that app?

[Erin O'Gorman]

I don't have that information. I can endeavour to get back to you if they provided us with a cost.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

Would you be able to quantify the number of frontline officers you'd be able to recruit, train and employ, based on an average salary and average employment cost, for the $54 million that was spent on ArriveCAN, and juxtapose that number against what the projected number was for the border app, version 1.0, versus what we got with ArriveCAN?

I'll move on, because we weren't able to ascertain that with the first question. Is facial recognition technology deployed at our ports of entry?

[Erin O'Gorman]

Yes.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

What is that program called?

[Erin O'Gorman]

It takes place at our PI kiosks, where individuals have their photos taken. They put their passports into the PIK machine, and they're validated, one against the other.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

Was the use of that technology, or any other facial recognition technology, advised by McKinsey or any other outside consultant?

[Erin O'Gorman]

I'll have to get back to you with that answer.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

I have the same question with respect to artificial intelligence. Are any AI systems deployed at our ports of entry or borders? If yes, what is the name of the program? If so, were those programs advised by or recommended by McKinsey?

[Erin O'Gorman]

I'll come back with that answer.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

Okay.

Minister, you talked about learning best practices from having a company like McKinsey, this global company. Some of the lessons that they've learned are awful. We've heard some of them detailed, and while I appreciate that we're offering them in anecdotal form, they are well reported and documented and are the subject of legal cases. We've seen that reported, whether it's with respect to Homeland Security and ICE in the United States or whether it's their practices on other shores, be it China, South Africa or France. Are those the kinds of best practices that we want to import to Canada?

There are good lessons and bad lessons. I would say that there seem to have been a lot of bad lessons that they've learned, and to go back to Mr. Genuis' questions, we don't know if the same folks who worked on those projects overseas, as have been detailed today, are working on projects here in Canada.

You mentioned that there are best practices that you get from them. I would argue that there's a downside risk to that. There's also the reputational risk to Canada and also the policy risk of having folks who would advise doing the types of things that we've talked about today also advising on other things in Canada.

You say that you have systems in place. Do the systems screen out and prevent those folks who are involved with those bad behaviours and bad practices from being employed and deployed here in Canada?

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

I would argue that yes, they do. My issue with Mr. Genuis is that he seemed to be operating on some assumptions for which there is no evidence, and to use your words, we don't know. More importantly, I am here to answer questions with regard to the four contracts that were awarded by the CBSA to McKinsey.