Government Operations Committee on March 8th, 2023

[Patricia Lattanzio, Liberal, Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC]

Can I vote with a thumbs up?

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

No, we don't.... I don't believe—

[Irek Kusmierczyk, Liberal, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Mr. Chair, that's been recognized in the House of Commons.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

We just went through this in a committee of chairs today, about not recognizing people to speak without.... I'm sorry. We've been through this for two years. We know it's affecting....

I will double check with our clerk, though.

[Irek Kusmierczyk, Liberal, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Mr. Chair, if you don't mind—

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

I will double check with the clerk. Give me just a second.

Yes, this is right from our friend, Speaker Rota, that without a headset you cannot participate, so I strongly urge you to go find a headset. It's been two years now. I'm sorry, but this is ridiculous.

[Patricia Lattanzio, Liberal, Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC]

Okay. Excuse me.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Mr. Jowhari is right that we do have the vote.

(Motion agreed to)

It is adjourned. But, please, I urge everyone to get a headset.

Okay, everyone.

[An hon member]

The game is on.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Yes, the game is on. We're reverting to the original order of business.

Minister Fortier, thank you for joining us.

[Mona Fortier, Liberal, President of the Treasury Board]

Hello, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

If you'd been on time, none of this would have happened. No, I'm teasing you.

[Mona Fortier, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

Well, our colleague left today and I wanted to recognize—

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

I'm teasing you, Minister.

We'll start with five minutes. We're running short. Please, could you keep your opening statement at five minutes, and then we'll get right to questions.

Thanks, Minister.

[Mona Fortier, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I am pleased to appear before you today to discuss the Supplementary Estimates (C), 2022‑23. First, I would like to acknowledge that we are meeting on traditional Algonquin Anishinabe land.

Today is international women's day, and I would like to join my colleagues in celebrating the achievements of women and girls who have helped shape our world today.

I am joined by senior officials from Treasury Board Secretariat, including four accomplished women. Allow me to introduce Ms. Annie Boudreau, Ms. Karen Cahill, Ms. Samantha Tattersall, Ms. Diane Peressini, Mr. Stephen Burt and Mr. Jean‑François Fleury.

Mr. Chair, each year the supplementary estimates present information on incremental spending requirements that either were not sufficiently developed in time for inclusion in the main estimates or have subsequently been refined to account for recent developments.

Now, these estimates' family of documents, including the supplementary estimates (C), provide insight into how the government plans to use public resources to carry out its mandate for Canadians.

Mr. Chair, with these supplementary estimates, the government is seeking Parliament's approval of $4.7 billion in voted spending across 58 organizations to address matters of importance to Canadians.

The three largest items in new voted spending are $500 million for military aid to Ukraine; $370 million to help developing countries address climate change; and $271 million to help reimburse first nations and emergency management service providers such as the Canadian Red Cross for response and recovery activities related to emergencies across the country. I would note, Mr. Chair, that this includes the 2022 flooding in Manitoba and Alberta.

These estimates include funds to implement key government priorities like the interim Canada dental benefit plan, making housing more affordable, and service delivery for the CRA and old age security. In my own department—as you know, the Treasury Board Secretariat—we're making investments towards strengthening protections for whistle-blowers, improving mental health support for Black public servants, and developing a new inclusive language training framework for the public service.

I will also note that statutory authorities that receive Parliament's approval through separate legislation are included in these supplementary estimates to provide a more complete picture of the department's total estimated expenditures.

These Supplementary Estimates (C) include statutory budget expenditures of $5.6 billion, which represents a 2.6% increase over previous estimates. The statutory estimates include a one-time rental housing benefit of $500 for 1.8 million low-income families and individuals.

Mr. Chair, Canadians and the parliamentarians who represent them have the right to know how public funds are spent. That is why, in addition to budget documents, we continue to use report production tools such as the Government of Canada InfoBase and the open government portal.

These tools are readily accessible and provide Canadians with information that is easy to understand about the spending approved by Parliament.

Mr. Chair, in conclusion, I would say that these estimates show how the government invests in Canada and internationally in order to follow through on its commitments and values. Among other things, this budget will enable us to support our international allies, to fight climate change, and to invest in First Nations communities.

All of these efforts are crucially important. Thank you to the committee for inviting me to discuss the supplementary estimates.

As you know, my senior officials and I are here to answer your questions.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Thank you, Minister.

We will start with Mrs. Kusie for six minutes.

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you, Minister, for being here today.

I see you have asked for $486,378 for this five-week fiscal period for review of the Public Servants Disclosure Protection Act and yet you and your government didn't vote in favour of Bill C-290.

Your government is clearly at this time, especially given everything that we're seeing on the foreign interference file—which we saw today actually dates back to 2019—really just a series of cover-ups. Frankly, I was really shocked that your Prime Minister didn't suggest an inquiry, because I felt as though this is what happened with Bill C-290, in that this private member's bill was put forward and so in a panicked response you put together this advisory board on the whistle-blowers.

My point is that your government at this point—and, in fact, we have seen in this meeting as well the closure of debate on our request for the documents around the U.K. trip—has a terrible track record of transparency with Canadians, and Canadians are waking up to that.

We saw that in question period today, where your Prime Minister, sadly, had to try to use so many tactics that we have seen before time and time again and to deflect by talking about, perhaps, errors my colleagues have made, or International Women's Day, which we have seen before.

Why didn't you just support Bill C-290 and will you commit to more transparency, Minister?

[Mona Fortier, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

Thank you for the question.

We all know that those who disclose serious wrongdoing must be protected. That is why we are currently asking an expert external task force to study how the federal disclosure process can better protect and empower employees to come forward. I really look forward to their advice.

Also, I think all parties agree on better protecting whistle-blowers, and that's why Bill C-290 would make some constructive changes but also would create some structural challenges.

I have had very good conversations with MP Garon about bringing forward Bill C-290, and we hope to find common ground to better protect our world-class public servants by taking some of the information in Bill C-290 and making sure that we also reduce those structural changes to make sure we have a law that provides a secure and confidential process for disclosing serious wrongdoing in the workplace and also protection from acts of reprisal.

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

Thank you, Minister.

I appreciate more of that information.

Really I don't think that it is the protection of whistle-blowers by this government. I actually think it's desperation by public servants who felt compelled to protect their nation and to provide information that is pertinent and imperative to the democracy of this country that drove these individuals from CSIS to come forward with this information.

I think your government has been significantly behind on this issue for some time, and, as I said, this task force just looks like another attempt to try to cover up transparency when you were given the opportunity with Bill C-290 to move forward with that.

In addition, you mentioned maintaining public service morale. We also see here in the estimates that you have put aside $817 million for professional services. You know very well that we have been undertaking a study of McKinsey here. Previous to that we were looking at other procurement issues. There has been a call to study other agencies outside of McKinsey. Why then do you continue to undermine public servants, who are sitting with you here today even, and provide another $817 million for consulting firms?

I believe your government is failing on transparency and you're also failing in terms of public service morale and, frankly, it's showing in the numbers we have seen recently. Both private union support and public union support are at the lowest place historically that I can remember, Minister Fortier.

What do you have to say to that regarding the amounts put aside for professional consulting services?

[Mona Fortier, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

Thank you for that question.

We know we have a very ambitious agenda. We have been supporting Canadians on many matters. We need to do that with the public servants, and they are doing a great job.

We also need to complement their work to make sure we deliver on that ambitious agenda. That is why, for example, we need to complement that work with IT. That is where much of the outsourcing will be to help us make sure we deliver for Canadians.

As you know, over the past decade the percentage of government expenditures for professional services has remained relatively consistent with the growth of the public service. Therefore, it's important to show that we are continuing to make sure that is still consistent with the outsourcing we're doing.

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

Thank you, Minister, again.

What I'm seeing consistently across not only the Treasury Board but also the entire government, starting from the top, is a consistent lack of transparency, a consistent effort to put your trust in the public service and not on the protection of the whistle-blowers as well.

Thank you, Minister.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Thank you. That is your time.

Before we go to Mr. Jowhari, Minister, are you with us for a full hour from the start time?

[Mona Fortier, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

That was the expectation, if I'm not mistaken, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Wonderful.

We just—

[Mona Fortier, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

If you want to cut it, I'm really open to that.