Yes.
Evidence of meeting #58 for Government Operations and Estimates in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was work.
A video is available from Parliament.
Evidence of meeting #58 for Government Operations and Estimates in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was work.
A video is available from Parliament.
4:05 p.m.
Bloc
Julie Vignola Bloc Beauport—Limoilou, QC
In the past, it was brought to my attention that within the public service itself, employees were getting a contract, but then being laid off for a few weeks before being rehired. This had the effect that these individuals did not have access to a pension fund or certain protections, among other things.
To your knowledge, is this a practice that still occurs in the Department of National Defence?
March 27th, 2023 / 4:05 p.m.
National President, Union of National Defence Employees
I'm sorry. I'll need you to repeat that. I'm not sure I got it all.
4:05 p.m.
Bloc
Julie Vignola Bloc Beauport—Limoilou, QC
It was brought to my attention a few months ago that people were being given temporary contracts for a few weeks or months and then laid off for two or three weeks before being rehired. These people spend their working lives like this, but ultimately cannot receive pensions or other benefits.
To your knowledge, is this practice still going on in the Department of National Defence?
4:05 p.m.
National President, Union of National Defence Employees
That is a practice that I am quite familiar with. It's hard to find out exactly how common it is, because these employees are very worried that they will not be picked up for the next contract.
4:05 p.m.
National President, Union of National Defence Employees
What you're talking about is typically casual workers. They work up to 90 days on a particular contract in a calendar year.
I can think of an instance in Gagetown. They had a whole group of maybe 30 of these casual workers who were having their names placed on boards. If anybody used any leave or didn't come in for a certain day, they would literally erase their name on the board and put it at the bottom so that they would know that they would be the last to be called in. It was a very mean-spirited way of managing people.
4:05 p.m.
Bloc
Julie Vignola Bloc Beauport—Limoilou, QC
Does this management method make these people feel less accountable than a public servant who is there year-round? I don't question their competence or desire to do a good job, but I wonder if we see a difference in their motivation and involvement in the public service.
4:05 p.m.
Liberal
The Vice-Chair Liberal Majid Jowhari
Thank you, Madame Vignola.
Could I have a very quick response, please? I gave you extra time because I know you had to repeat your question, so could we have a quick 10- or 15-second response? Thank you.
4:05 p.m.
National President, Union of National Defence Employees
These employees feel incredibly vulnerable and feel they have to agree to pretty much anything that is asked of them, regardless of the reasonableness of it.
4:05 p.m.
Liberal
4:05 p.m.
NDP
Gord Johns NDP Courtenay—Alberni, BC
Thank you, and thank you, Ms. Winger, for being here. Thanks for the advocacy on behalf of all your members. I want to thank your members for the incredible service they do every day to support our country and the best interests of Canadians.
We learned through DND's documents that it gave McKinsey a contract to—I'm going to read this—“advise and assist in the development of a transformational staffing plan.” Basically, McKinsey will be analyzing roles, responsibilities, training and more for all personnel categories, including public service workers and contracted employees.
McKinsey will also be making recommendations for organizational and workplace changes, even for elements of the Canadian Joint Operations Command services that the government believes would be best suited for contracting out.
Can you tell me whether the union was consulted prior to this contract, as is required? I also want to know your response to the contract. Do you have concerns with this? Do you believe there's a conflict here?
4:05 p.m.
National President, Union of National Defence Employees
There was no consultation in this regard, and certainly there should have been.
We have union and management consultation committee meetings. We have terms of reference that are very clear. They define consultation and when it should take place. It's supposed to be the ability, as much as possible and as soon as possible, to be aware that there is going to be something coming up.
What was part two?
4:10 p.m.
NDP
Gord Johns NDP Courtenay—Alberni, BC
It was in terms of the concerns you might have with it in response.
I also have a hard time, and would like to hear your perspective. A highly paid consulting company is basically making recommendations for organizational workforce changes, both for outsourced workers and personnel decision-making around public workers. Do you have concerns that decisions are being made around contracted employees and public workers?
4:10 p.m.
National President, Union of National Defence Employees
Absolutely, and without a doubt I have concerns.
I have never seen contractors take a look and say that they should be going with the public service. I have never seen strong evidence for that. There always seems to be a reliance on skewed evidence that is not reasonable and doesn't consider the full context or appreciate what the challenges would be.
I'm mindful of my counterpart in the U.K., who tells me many stories about the contracting out of the defence department in the U.K. and all of the challenges that have come as a result of that. Absolutely none of that contracting out has been to the benefit of the citizens of the U.K. or the department within defence there. These are ongoing issues.
These kinds of companies always seem to lack transparency. We never get to see exactly what it is they were looking at. We never quite know who exactly they spoke with. It's always difficult to rely on any of the results they provide us.
You also have to consider the loyalty of the companies. Public servants take an oath. We swear loyalty to Canada and we are always looking for the best for national defence. We have to abide by a code of ethics. We continue to follow employment equity plans. All of this gets skirted when it comes to the private sector. Its end game is to make a dollar at the end, and it can. That's fine, but that's not providing the best value for Canadians.
4:10 p.m.
NDP
Gord Johns NDP Courtenay—Alberni, BC
I think the end game is for them to create work for themselves in the future.
One thing we heard from government members was that they tried to justify the surge in hiring outsourcing. Sure, we understand that, but earlier you talked about the hygienist working alongside the other hygienist and making more money. This isn't about surge capacity; this about them doing this on a regular basis.
Can you speak about that?
4:10 p.m.
National President, Union of National Defence Employees
We have a great number of challenges. When we had the massive layoffs back in 2012—I think they were aiming for about 19,000—the layoffs that happened were not upper management and they weren't the directors; it was all the worker bees.
It's these very same workers, those who do all of the work, who are now missing. We have this skeleton staff of tradespeople left, who are rushing about trying to assist the contractors. That's what they end up doing.
The contractors come in and do the work that's being asked of them, and sometimes it's not quite exactly as it's being asked for. The public servants are relied upon to go in there and finish it up, do the corrections and do whatever it takes. We see that time and time again.
4:10 p.m.
Liberal
The Vice-Chair Liberal Majid Jowhari
Thank you. That completes your time.
We are done with the first round. We are going to the five-minute round now. We're going to start with MP Barrett.
You have the floor for five minutes.
4:15 p.m.
Conservative
Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. Thank you, ma'am, for joining us today.
What does it do to the morale of your members when they see millions of dollars in contracts going to single companies? As we're discussing today, McKinsey was getting $15 million from DND amidst a wide number of other contracts as well.
What does that do to the culture and morale of the workplace of your members?
4:15 p.m.
National President, Union of National Defence Employees
It's very disheartening for the members when they know that they are being underpaid for what they are doing. They see the people standing right next to them doing similar work and most often being paid much more than they are. It makes them feel like their work is being diminished and not being appreciated. They're always trying to push through that.
4:15 p.m.
Conservative
Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON
Of the nearly $4.6 billion that was spent on outsourcing by DND, the $15 million that went to McKinsey was about culture. They were supposed to drive culture change. We've highlighted several times why a company with a record like McKinsey's is not one that I would want coaching my team on culture. Having served in the Canadian Forces and having worked alongside non-uniformed employees of DND, I know they wouldn't take any real lessons on culture from a company like McKinsey. They would have an awareness of and appreciation for hearing from their peers on where changes need to be made. They recognize when things aren't right and that just because things have been done a certain way for a long time doesn't mean that there aren't opportunities to improve on them.
At this committee I highlighted for the minister the state of the living quarters at CFB Kingston, and specifically at the Canadian Forces School of Communications and Electronics, where repairs aren't being done to the living quarters for members who are stationed there. It is also the workplace for your members, and it includes mould, rodent infestations, water infiltration and inadequate bathroom facilities.
With the government shovelling money out the door to high-priced consultants who are making more than both the uniformed members—certainly more than the non-commissioned members who are staying in those accommodations that I referenced—and your members who work in these facilities, does that have an negative impact on their morale? If it does, in your opinion, do you believe that investments in the infrastructure there and the leadership of legacy members could improve both the culture challenges that exist and the depressing physical workspace that is, frankly, destroying the morale of DND employees and uniformed members of the Canadian forces?
4:15 p.m.
National President, Union of National Defence Employees
CFB Kingston is a really hard one. Around Christmastime, I received a phone call from the local president there, who told me that one of our members was in the hospital in a medically induced coma. It was suspected that he had contracted legionnaires' disease. Shortly thereafter it was confirmed, and we found legionella in the workplace. Now that member is a double amputee as a result of this, for just trying to go to work.
Is it a negative impact on their morale? You bet it is. It's shocking that it has come to this sort of level. It's absolutely shocking and disgraceful, to be quite blunt. Do we need investments to improve the morale and the space? Certainly. However, we're getting another report. This is what National Defence does: We get another report, and a report after that and a report after that. At some point, they have to action these reports—
4:20 p.m.
Liberal