Evidence of meeting #58 for Government Operations and Estimates in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was work.
A video is available from Parliament.
4:20 p.m.
National President, Union of National Defence Employees
At one point, they have to action these reports. They have to do something with them, and not just continue to look for what fits the narrative or goes to their predesigned destination.
Continuing to look for other ways of addressing this isn't the problem. The problem is actually doing something.
4:20 p.m.
Conservative
Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON
Chair, if I may, I think that I can comfortably say that all members of the committee express their sorrow for your member. That's terrible, and I'm so sorry that this happened to them. I want to offer my sympathy to you.
4:20 p.m.
Liberal
The Vice-Chair Liberal Majid Jowhari
Thank you, MP Barrett. It is duly noted. I think we are all in the same boat. Thank you for that acknowledgement.
The next five minutes go to MP Thompson. The floor is yours, ma'am.
4:20 p.m.
Liberal
Joanne Thompson Liberal St. John's East, NL
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I want to begin by thanking your members for the work that they do. It's incredibly important.
If I could switch back to the McKinsey contracts, what kind of expertise does outsourcing let the government access that it doesn't have in-house?
4:20 p.m.
National President, Union of National Defence Employees
I wouldn't know what they do. Whenever I go for an ATIP to find out this information, I either get no response or it's so heavily redacted that it's nearly impossible to find out.
Some of these outsourced contracts have our own members. We try to gather information from both sides and compare them so that we can figure out what the contract's supposed to hold.
4:20 p.m.
Liberal
Joanne Thompson Liberal St. John's East, NL
Thank you.
The audit has identified four recommendations so that improvements to the procurement process can be made. The department has provided management action plans to address these issues.
Do you believe that there are any parts of the current procurement process that could be strengthened with respect to the decision-making process that haven't already been identified in the audit?
4:20 p.m.
National President, Union of National Defence Employees
I'm sorry. I don't have that information.
4:20 p.m.
Liberal
Joanne Thompson Liberal St. John's East, NL
Okay, that's fine.
Some of the McKinsey contracts were sole-sourced, due to the proprietary nature of McKinsey & Company's offerings, for which there were no resellers. Do you believe that this is an acceptable reason for sole-sourcing?
4:20 p.m.
National President, Union of National Defence Employees
National Defence likes to sole-source a lot of contracts. I question the validity of the rationale for doing so from time to time.
4:20 p.m.
Liberal
Joanne Thompson Liberal St. John's East, NL
Thank you.
Reservists have always been expected to hold a regular job. Do you believe reservists should be blocked from all DND contracts, or are there circumstances in which they can do contract work for the department without being in a conflict of interest?
4:20 p.m.
National President, Union of National Defence Employees
We have a number of reservists who come in and work with National Defence. I don't know why we would hire them as a contractor when we can use their skill set as a reservist within National Defence.
4:20 p.m.
Liberal
4:20 p.m.
Liberal
Joanne Thompson Liberal St. John's East, NL
Okay. I just wanted to ask another question and not have it be cut off.
The current integrity regime puts five- and 10-year bans on companies deemed to be in violation of an ineligibility and suspension policy. Are these appropriate penalties for unethical conduct?
4:20 p.m.
National President, Union of National Defence Employees
This is not my area of expertise.
4:20 p.m.
Liberal
Joanne Thompson Liberal St. John's East, NL
That's fine.
The second half, just to have it on the record, is this: Is Canada's regime out of step with international peers?
March 27th, 2023 / 4:20 p.m.
National President, Union of National Defence Employees
Again, that's outside my area.
4:20 p.m.
Liberal
Joanne Thompson Liberal St. John's East, NL
That's okay.
Does our regime incentivize concealment when problems are discovered?
4:20 p.m.
National President, Union of National Defence Employees
I'm sorry. I didn't catch that part.
4:20 p.m.
Liberal
Joanne Thompson Liberal St. John's East, NL
Certainly. Does our regime incentivize concealment when problems are discovered?
4:25 p.m.
National President, Union of National Defence Employees
Absolutely. Absolutely.
4:25 p.m.
Liberal
Joanne Thompson Liberal St. John's East, NL
If I could just reference briefly the work that McKinsey described in committee that they were doing in the department around the cultural shifts that need to happen within the department, would you speak to how your members would be able to conduct that work?