Government Operations Committee on May 29th, 2023

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Colleagues, I call this meeting to order.

Welcome, everyone, to meeting number 68 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Government Operations and Estimates, the only committee that matters, also known as the mighty OGGO.

Pursuant to Standing Order 81(4) and the order of reference adopted by the House on Wednesday, February 15, 2023, the committee is meeting to consider the main estimates, 2023-24.

Before we turn things over to the minister, colleagues, we will be voting on the estimates today. There are 23 departments we're voting on, or 23 votes, and I'd like unanimous consent, please, that we group the votes by department.

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

That's wonderful. Thank you very much.

Minister, welcome back. It is good to have you here. I understand that you'll be doing a five-minute opening statement.

[Helena Jaczek, Liberal, Minister of Public Services and Procurement]

Thank you, Chair. I will indeed.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

That's wonderful.

I will turn things over to you. Starting off by recognizing the mighty OGGO would be wonderful.

For all of our viewers at home, go ahead, Minister.

[Helena Jaczek, Liberal, Markham—Stouffville, ON]

Thank you so much.

Good afternoon.

Let me start by saying that I would like to acknowledge that we are gathered on the unceded territory of the Algonquin Anishinabe peoples.

With me to discuss this year's main estimates for Public Services and Procurement Canada are Paul Thompson, deputy minister; Wojciech Zielonka, assistant deputy minister and chief financial officer; and Simon Page, assistant deputy minister, defence and marine procurement branch. From Shared Services Canada, there is Sony Perron, president, and Scott Davis, chief financial officer.

In order to support our activities, PSPC is requesting a net amount of $4.3 billion through the main estimates. This is a net decrease of $304 million from the previous year's main estimates.

Ensuring government procurement is fair, open and competitive is one of the cornerstones of our work at Public Services and Procurement Canada.

We serve Canadians each day by supplying the necessary goods and services to facilitate the daily operations of our government.

This includes fulfilling Canada's defence policy commitments through purchases of top-of-the-line equipment for our members of the Canadian Armed Forces, who play a crucial role in defending Canadians and supporting global security. We will continue working with our partners to advance Canada's national shipbuilding strategy, which supports the Royal Canadian Navy and Canadian Coast Guard, while at the same time revitalizing Canada's shipbuilding industry. In addition to that, our national shipbuilding strategy is creating jobs for hard-working Canadians and has contributed approximately $1.93 billion annually to Canada's gross domestic product between 2012 and 2022.

At the beginning of April, we were proud to sign a groundbreaking agreement between our government and Chantier Davie to introduce the Quebec shipyard as the third strategic partner under the NSS. This will allow us to begin negotiations to build multiple icebreakers.

Mr. Chair, as this committee knows, Public Services and Procurement Canada is also the steward of the government's real property holdings. As such, we plan to spend $3.4 billion on property and infrastructure activities. Much of that amount contains funds to maintain federal government buildings and bridges for the benefit of all.

Among other things, this funding will allow us to advance important projects such as the rehabilitation of the historic parliamentary precinct, which includes the redevelopment of block 2 and the ongoing renovation of the Centre Block, the most complex heritage rehabilitation project ever seen in the country.

These funds will also support greening government initiatives for federal property and infrastructure through the use of clean energy and by reducing waste and greenhouse gases. To date, the department has already realized a 54% reduction in greenhouse gas emissions, surpassing the 2016 to 2019 federal sustainable development strategy target of 40% by 2030. To tackle climate change, our government is committed to powering federal buildings with 100% renewable energy by 2025.

The main estimates also include $318.7 million for payments and accounting initiatives, which include pay administration operations.

My portfolio also includes Shared Services Canada, which plays a vital role in supporting government operations and the digital delivery of programs and services to Canadians. As shown in its departmental plan, SSC's available funding for 2023-24 will be $2.6 billion, excluding $853 million in revenue.

With the approval of the 2023-24 main estimates, we are seeking to decrease SSC's reference levels by $26.9 million compared with last year's main estimates. The change in SSC reference level can be attributed to a combination of factors, including a net transfer amount of $34.4 million to other departments; a reduction of $329.3 million in other adjustments related to changes in funding profiles for multi-year initiatives and projects; $136.4 million in new funding for IT services and projects; $194.9 million in re-profiled funding from previous years; and a $5.5-million increase in statutory appropriations.

Mr. Chair, the funding requested in the main estimates for both departments will strengthen our ability to meet our obligations to Canadians.

I am now pleased to answer your questions.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Thank you, Minister.

We'll start with six minutes for Mrs. Block.

[Kelly Block, Conservative, Carlton Trail—Eagle Creek, SK]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Minister, for joining us today.

Thank you to the departmental officials who have also come to, hopefully, answer the questions we have in regard to the main estimates.

Minister, the home of the Prime Minister at 24 Sussex is in the news, as it has fallen into a state of disrepair and is currently uninhabitable, as we all know. An article this morning from CBC stated that the National Capital Commission has started construction on 24 Sussex, even though the government has still not decided what should be done with the property. According to a Global News article, the government has delayed a decision on the future of 24 Sussex. The NCC's board chairman wrote a letter to your predecessor, Minister Tassi, yet no action has been taken by this government or your ministry.

Does your ministry have any plans to deal with 24 Sussex?

[Helena Jaczek, Liberal, Markham—Stouffville, ON]

Thank you very much, Mrs. Block.

As you alluded to, the National Capital Commission has been making some efforts to, basically, ameliorate all the problems with 24 Sussex Drive—in other words, the removal of asbestos and some old mechanical and electrical systems in place. It's considered a safety issue at this point. That work has been ongoing over the last couple of months.

I want to point out that the National Capital Commission is, obviously, a Crown agency at arm's length from government. Of course, we are having significant dialogue in terms of developing a plan for the future of 24 Sussex Drive and working with them on that endeavour.

I will point out that 24 Sussex Drive has not seen any significant investment in over 60 years. What is being done now is simply for the safety of the property. Going forward, we will be exploring opportunities in the future.

[Kelly Block, Conservative, Carlton Trail—Eagle Creek, SK]

Thank you.

I read the articles. It was stated that what needed to be done would have to be done regardless of what the future of 24 Sussex may be.

Have there been any conversations in regard to what the future of 24 Sussex will be?

[Helena Jaczek, Liberal, Markham—Stouffville, ON]

At this point in time, we're exploring a number of different options there. As you've read in the media, the National Capital Commission has been exploring different options, and there have been conversations with our officials in terms of what those might look like. However, there has yet to be any decision taken by cabinet, going forward.

[Kelly Block, Conservative, Carlton Trail—Eagle Creek, SK]

Who owns 24 Sussex?

[Helena Jaczek, Liberal, Markham—Stouffville, ON]

I presume it is the National Capital Commission. They are essentially responsible, as a Crown agency of the government.

[Kelly Block, Conservative, Carlton Trail—Eagle Creek, SK]

Okay. Thank you very much.

Minister, the last time you were here, you noted that the NextGen human resources and pay system was undergoing some pilot testing. You were pleased to provide us with an update at that time when we were asking you questions around the Phoenix pay system and all of the issues with that. Could you give us a bit of an update on where things are at with the NextGen system?

[Helena Jaczek, Liberal, Markham—Stouffville, ON]

As you will probably recall, we are piloting the system with three different departments. As I understand it, those pilots are being monitored very closely in terms of—obviously—accuracy while we're maintaining the Phoenix system to actually pay employees. I can probably hand over to President Perron for a little more detail on how those pilots are progressing, but as you can imagine, we're being extremely cautious because we want to make sure that any movement over to NextGen is seamless and flawless.

[Sony Perron, President, Shared Services Canada]

We are finishing the testing phase with these three departments to make sure the commercial-grade solution we are testing can meet the requirements of the federal government's operations for HR and pay going forward. We are identifying any gaps and any changes that will be required in the way we manage HR and pay if we want to leverage this kind of solution, leading to conclusions on the payment accuracy and the ability of the system to provide timely and accurate pay, and we are making sure we can address some of the complex scenarios that exist in the federal public service.

As you can see, there are a number of employment groups and some have very complex pay and HR environments, so we will finish the testing this summer. Hopefully, by the end of the calendar year, we are going to come back with an assessment of how we can adapt to adopt such a solution in the future and what types of changes we will have to make in order to create the conditions so that we can leverage these commercial solutions in an effective way and not produce errors but produce accuracy.

[Kelly Block, Conservative, Carlton Trail—Eagle Creek, SK]

I can assure you that we are watching very carefully, and I'm sure our public service is as well, given all of the issues they have had to deal with over the last number of years since the Liberal government decided to launch the Phoenix pay system before it was actually ready.

How much time do I have?

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

You have 12 seconds.

[Kelly Block, Conservative, Carlton Trail—Eagle Creek, SK]

Okay. Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Ms. Thompson, we go over to you for six minutes. Go ahead, please.

[Joanne Thompson, Liberal, St. John's East, NL]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Welcome back to the committee, Minister and officials. Thank you again for the wonderful announcement in my riding last week. It was a real pleasure to welcome you to St. John's East.

Minister, when we speak about the national shipbuilding strategy, we often have major projects in mind, things like the icebreakers. You mentioned in your opening remarks that Davie shipyard is now the third shipyard under the NSS. While you were in Newfoundland and Labrador last week, you made that amazing announcement of $2.5 billion in funding for the renewal of the Canadian Coast Guard's small vessel fleet.

Could you elaborate on this market-moving announcement for the marine industry across Canada, and what it represents for all provincial and territorial economies?

[Helena Jaczek, Liberal, Markham—Stouffville, ON]

Thank you so much.

Yes, it was indeed a pleasure to be in Newfoundland and Labrador last week to make the announcement, because what we're trying to do with this announcement is to ensure there's a steady supply of new vessels, along with the repairing and the ongoing maintenance of the small vessels used by the Canadian Coast Guard. This will eliminate what has heretofore been a sort of boom-and-bust cycle of all of a sudden all of the vessels being aged out and needing to replace the whole lot. This is a really good plan to ensure those vessels that just need repair can go out and do what they need to do. It's to maintain that service and, also, obviously, to bring on new vessels as we need them.

There are 61 new vessels, 34 search and rescue lifeboats, another speciality vessel related to scientific research and another group that are going to be what are called multi-mission vessels. This opens the door for smaller shipyards. This is the type of work that is exactly what small and medium-sized shipyards can achieve. Many of them are already involved in repairing these Coast Guard vessels, but this also gives the opportunity for them to actually bid on constructing some of these new vessels.

While I was in Newfoundland, you will recall that we had the opportunity to visit Harbour Grace Ocean Enterprises, an example of one of these smaller shipyards. I know there are many across the country that are currently repairing Coast Guard vessels but would be in the market—potentially—to bid on contracts to actually construct them.

It was really quite inspiring to see this very small town, Harbour Grace, with a shipyard in the heart of the old village with so many vessels under construction. Obviously, there are commercial vessels that this shipyard has been retained to construct. There's also the fact that 100 employees have steady employment just from that one shipyard.

This is a tremendous boon to the shipyards of this size across the country. We know that it obviously will contribute to the local economy and provide good jobs. There are lots of skilled trades involved, especially electricians. I think we were quite stunned to see the types of controls that are necessary in order to actually get these vessels out to sea.

It was a great announcement and very well received by both the Canadian Coast Guard and the local shipyard we visited.

[Joanne Thompson, Liberal, St. John's East, NL]

Thank you for mentioning Harbour Grace.

For me, this really is a direct link to the impact on the local economy of announcements like this. Certainly, there's a local company in my riding that's involved with the design for the Irving shipyard. Again, these contracts are having direct impacts across the country.

We know that the government has been taking steps with the national shipbuilding strategy to supply the Canadian Coast Guard with top-of-the-line equipment to keep waterways safe. Could you share some of the details of this investment with the committee, please?

[Helena Jaczek, Liberal, Markham—Stouffville, ON]

It was really interesting to go to the operations centre at the Canadian Coast Guard complex in St. John's. New technology—and obviously we've been investing in this technology—has allowed the Coast Guard to have the most amazing maps, as we saw, where all of the icebergs are detailed within quadrants. Obviously, navigation aid to vessels is one of the functions of the Canadian Coast Guard.

The type of 24-7 response in terms of the potential for search and rescue operations was also very reassuring. It shows really the strength of our Canadian Coast Guard, the way they're progressing in their very important work and also the investment our government has been making to ensure their activities go forward as they should to protect Canadians.

[Joanne Thompson, Liberal, St. John's East, NL]

Thank you.

How much time do I have, Mr. Chair?