Government Operations Committee on May 29th, 2023

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

You have 14 seconds.

[Joanne Thompson, Liberal, St. John's East, NL]

I'll pass on my 14 seconds. Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Thanks, Ms. Thompson.

Ms. Vignola, you have six minutes, and 14 seconds from Ms. Thompson.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Ms. Jaczek, Mr. Thompson, Mr. Zielonka, Mr. Page, Mr. Perron and Mr. Davis, thank you for joining us today.

Ms. Jaczek, naturally, people in the Quebec City area, as well as those elsewhere in Quebec, are very glad that the Davie shipyard is finally part of the national shipbuilding strategy. All the stakeholders who've worked on the file over the past 10 years are delighted by this news. Many have worked behind the scenes, but everyone's happy.

That said, you know as well as I do that the Davie shipyard represents 50% of Canada's shipbuilding capacity. The national shipbuilding strategy has a budget of approximately $100 billion. Year after year, Quebec provides about 22% of that funding, but ultimately, the Davie shipyard will receive some 8% of the total value of federal contracts.

Do you anticipate additional contracts, other than for the icebreakers?

[Helena Jaczek, Liberal, Markham—Stouffville, ON]

Thank you so much.

As you know, we have an umbrella agreement in terms of the large shipyards. That was the case with Chantier Davie. Within that umbrella contract, there's the opportunity, clearly, for Davie to build numerous of these large vessels going forward.

If you would like some of the details as to how that might happen, perhaps I can turn to the deputy.

[Paul Thompson, Deputy Minister, Department of Public Works and Government Services]

Thank you, Minister.

A contract has already been awarded to the Davie shipyard for ferry construction. There are two other ships for—

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Ferries aren't part of the national shipbuilding strategy. I'm talking about ships that will be built under that strategy.

[Paul Thompson]

I'll ask Mr. Page to provide you with more details.

[Simon Page, Assistant Deputy Minister, Defence and Marine Procurement, Department of Public Works and Government Services]

I thank the member for her question.

Under the framework agreement signed recently, the program of work now includes the two Transport Canada passenger ferries. Initially, the two ferries were excluded from the framework agreement. However, after the agreement was signed, the decision was made that the two new Transport Canada vessels would be integrated into the program of work. It now includes nine vessels: the two ferries, as well as a polar icebreaker and six program icebreakers for the Canadian Coast Guard.

Other elements of the program of work also need to be taken into consideration. I'd like to point out that Davie is largely responsible for projects under our third pillar, meaning the maintenance and refit of Royal Canadian Navy and Canadian Coast Guard vessels. In a competitive environment, the Davie shipyard will continue to have access to this component of the strategy.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

If I understand correctly, approximately $8 billion will be invested in ships, ferries and icebreakers.

[Simon Page]

Currently, it's just over $8.5 billion. That amount is solely for construction, which will probably take between 15 and 16 years. That doesn't include the amounts intended for repairs and refits.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Alarm bells were raised in Quebec about the Amundsen, especially by Université Laval and the Institut des sciences de la mer in Rimouski, in eastern Quebec. Some icebreakers will be built, and we're told that they'll replace the Amundsen. However, it's a highly specialized vessel that's essential in the Arctic.

Can you assure me that the replacement vessel will serve the needs of scientists as effectively as the Amundsen, if not more so? I'm talking about the advancement of knowledge on climate change, particularly in the Arctic, and the protection of coastal and offshore waters.

[Helena Jaczek, Liberal, Markham—Stouffville, ON]

To clarify, of course PSPC responds to the requirements of the purchasing department. Obviously, they need to specify the kind of work that needs to be done. Then PSPC goes out and obtains the necessary contractual arrangement in order to achieve what is required by the purchasing department.

Perhaps Simon could give us a little bit more on the direct question.

[Simon Page]

Thank you very much.

The minister gave a very good answer.

The scope of the work, the specifications of the equipment on board and the characteristics of the vessel itself are established by the client organizations, the Canadian Coast Guard and the Royal Canadian Navy, in this case. For our part, we try to select the best contract and the best possible procurement strategy to deliver the vessels.

I can tell you that the polar icebreaker project on the west coast is off to a good start. The design is very promising and modern.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Thank you very much.

Next is Mr. Johns, for six minutes, please.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Minister, for being here, and to all of the public servants for the important work that you and your team do.

To get back to Mrs. Block's good questions around 24 Sussex, when are we going to have a plan? When are we going to know the details?

You're spending more money. When are you going to put out a detailed plan so that Canadians know what's going to happen there and how you're going to spend their tax dollars on that site?

[Helena Jaczek, Liberal, Markham—Stouffville, ON]

As we said, the property is in the hands of the National Capital Commission, so they will be bringing detailed plans to us as proposals that will be considered by cabinet.

I would say that I'm optimistic, and I'm just as impatient as you, Mr. Johns, to have some plan going forward in the very near future.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

It will be the near future. Is there any timeline that you're going to share with us potentially, so that Canadians have a general idea of when they're going to know what the plan is? Because right now, we've heard this....

[Helena Jaczek, Liberal, Markham—Stouffville, ON]

I keep inquiring as well.

I think, Mr. Deputy, it's within—

[Paul Thompson]

It will be the fall.

[Helena Jaczek, Liberal, Markham—Stouffville, ON]

It's by the fall.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

I'm going to reference some staffing numbers from PSPC's human resource planning summary in the Treasury Board's open data site.

You and I have talked about Phoenix a lot. I'm talking about the four payments and accounting in the PSPC summary, which lists 4,792 FTEs for fiscal year 2022-23. That number drops to 2,438 for 2023-24, which is about half as many employees. Even worse, the Treasury Board lists the number of workers for PSPC federal pay administration as about 2,960 for 2021-22, but the number for planned workers in 2023-24 is only 761. That's about one-quarter of last year's employees.

I'm concerned by this drastic reduction in public servants. This is coming at a time when there are 209,000 transactions right now sitting in the backlog, which our public servants are, wrongfully, waiting for. It's totally unacceptable. The trend is that the number of backlog transactions is rising and not diminishing.

As New Democrats, we are concerned. I can't see how the government will be able to pay its employees with a federal pay administration staff of only 761 full-time workers.

Minister, can you talk about your plan for outsourcing? Are you planning to outsource the contract or go back to the departments for pay delivery? Maybe you can talk about what is being considered.

[Helena Jaczek, Liberal, Markham—Stouffville, ON]

Mr. Johns, you need to be aware that we are actually adding employees to support the stabilization of Phoenix. I think the numbers you're referring to have something to do with an expiry of a certain number.... However, going forward, we are definitely adding employees.

Again, perhaps the deputy can explain why it looks like they're being decreased...because they are being added.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

Before he does that, I want to make sure he's aware—and you know this—that since the time they've been announced, unions have been asking department representatives repeatedly whether it's a mistake in these plans or they're accurate, and they haven't received a response.

Maybe you can speak to them, as well, when you speak to me in your response.

[Paul Thompson]

Thank you for the question.

As the minister was suggesting, this is the result of a three-year tranche of funding that expired at the end of the previous fiscal year. The budget 2023 announced new funding for pay administration. It's not yet in the main estimates. Consequently, it's that funding that is actually helping to expand the pay centre. We've added 570 staff since last fall and continue to augment that. There were more added just in the last month, and we have another 150 or so planned for over the course of this summer. That is adding considerably to the capacity to both keep up with the new intake in pay and also to address backlog reduction.