Government Operations Committee on May 29th, 2023

[Helena Jaczek, Liberal, Markham—Stouffville, ON]

PSPC has been very actively involved in this particular area.

As an example, this past year alone, PSPC reported a 57.3% reduction in greenhouse gas emissions from its own buildings compared to the 2005-06 baseline. Moreover, we are expecting a decrease of 40% by 2025 by modernizing the heating and cooling systems for up to 80 buildings in the national capital region through the energy services acquisition program.

We also have a target of over 82% greenhouse gas emissions reductions by 2025 and net-zero carbon by 2030 for the federally owned portfolio, so we're definitely on track. Obviously what we're looking at are buildings owned by PSPC, and we're very optimistic that we'll meet our targets.

[Parm Bains, Liberal, Steveston—Richmond East, BC]

Thank you.

How close are we to achieving that goal, the levels we're trying to meet?

[Helena Jaczek, Liberal, Markham—Stouffville, ON]

We're really just on track. If you look at the trend lines in what we're doing, we should be able to achieve exactly what we intend to in meeting those targets.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

You have time for a four-second question, Mr. Bains.

[Parm Bains, Liberal, Steveston—Richmond East, BC]

I don't have a four-second question, Mr. Chair.

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Thanks, Mr. Bains.

Minister, that is your time with us. Thank you for joining us again.

We'll excuse the minister and get right back into it with her officials.

We have Mrs. Block for five minutes, please.

[Kelly Block, Conservative, Carlton Trail—Eagle Creek, SK]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Again, thank you for remaining with us for whatever time we have left with you to perhaps follow up on some of the information we've been given.

I am going to return to 24 Sussex because there are still some questions in my mind around the structure among the federal government, the NCC and perhaps even the FHBRO, the Federal Heritage Building Review Office, and ultimately who is responsible for what.

The residence is designated as a “classified heritage building” by the FHBRO. The minister said when I asked who owns 24 Sussex that the NCC does. If you go to their website, it states that 24 Sussex is being “managed” by the National Capital Commission and that they have been doing this since 1988. I guess I'm wondering if you can explain what I see as a discrepancy between owning and managing.

Then, could you also perhaps tell us who is funding the abatement for 24 Sussex and ultimately, perhaps, the renovations, should they occur?

I'll leave it there.

[Paul Thompson]

Thank you for the question.

I should note that I can't speak on behalf of the National Capital Commission. They have the responsibility for the whole portfolio of official residences. They have commenced work on the abatement that is necessary. This work is necessary under any future scenario for the property dealing with hazardous situations, asbestos abatement, etc. That work does need to be done. It's being done by the NCC, under their direction. They have a capital fund for the maintenance of all official residences. It will be done in that regard.

With respect to future decisions, there are some implications that obviously go outside of the National Capital Commission. The Official Residences Act is an act of Parliament, so there is a legislative dimension. If that were ever to change, there would be funding that.... A major project at 24 Sussex would be beyond the approved budgets of the National Capital Commission, so there would need to be a funding source.

There are indeed some elements that go beyond the role of the NCC—you had mentioned another one, the heritage responsibility—but the NCC is the custodian, the responsible organization and the owner of the property.

[Kelly Block, Conservative, Carlton Trail—Eagle Creek, SK]

Thank you. I appreciate that answer.

Perhaps you could clarify what you mean by funding requirements that go beyond what the NCC may be prepared or be able to cover. Does that mean that the Government of Canada would provide funding to that project and that ultimately it would be the taxpayers who are paying for the renovations at 24 Sussex?

[Paul Thompson]

The National Capital Commission has funding for the ongoing maintenance of its capital assets. They got a one-time injection of $175 million over 10 years to address deferred maintenance for the entire suite of official residences, but they have not been funded to undertake large projects that were not part of their planned trajectory of work.

I guess what I'm suggesting is that a major undertaking would not be within their current allocation of funding.

[Kelly Block, Conservative, Carlton Trail—Eagle Creek, SK]

I think I understand that. Where would the funding come from?

[Paul Thompson]

It would have to be budgeted for the NCC to undertake a significant program of work beyond the maintenance of the capital assets that they've been funded.

[Kelly Block, Conservative, Carlton Trail—Eagle Creek, SK]

They would budget for that. Is there a funding source that they need to—

[Paul Thompson]

It would have to come from the federal budget. It would be a budget decision for the NCC.

[Kelly Block, Conservative, Carlton Trail—Eagle Creek, SK]

The federal budget...so ultimately the taxpayer.

[Paul Thompson]

There is no other funding source that I'm aware of for such a project.

[Kelly Block, Conservative, Carlton Trail—Eagle Creek, SK]

Right, but that was a really roundabout way of getting to the answer to my question. I'm just trying to make it very clear for anybody who is watching this committee that 24 Sussex and any renovations that take place there will ultimately end up being funded by the taxpayer.

When you take a look at the fact that the National Capital Commission issued warnings to the government that delays would have disastrous effects, I think it behooves the government to act responsibly and to make decisions in a timely way to mitigate those disastrous effects and to just be up front and honest with Canadians about who owns this property, ultimately, and who will end up footing the bill should the decision be made to renovate 24 Sussex.

I'm just going to put it out on the record that I really appreciate our historical buildings. I'm sitting on the long-term vision and planning group for the renovation that is taking place at Centre Block. I am pleased that we are working so hard to maintain the historical aspects of our parliamentary precinct. I am in no way making a statement of judgment on what should happen with 24 Sussex, but stories are now—

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

That is our time, Mrs. Block.

[Kelly Block, Conservative, Carlton Trail—Eagle Creek, SK]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Mr. Jowhari, you have five minutes, please.

[Majid Jowhari, Liberal, Richmond Hill, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to welcome the department.

Mr. Thompson, the minister in her opening remarks talked about the $4.3-billion estimates request. She mentioned that the largest portion of that was about $3.4 billion for property and infrastructure. Actually, looking at the six items listed by the Library of Parliament, I noticed that it's the only item that has consistently increased. In 2021, we were at about $2.8 billion. Then we went to $3.2 billion. This year we are at $3.4 billion. All the other items have reduced.

Can you tell me where we're planning to spend this $3.4 billion? If you could tie it into how or whether any of that money is being used for some of the greening of the government and government building initiatives that we have, I would really appreciate it.

[Paul Thompson]

Indeed. Thank you for that question.

There are a number of categories of projects, I would say, within that capital envelope. A very large one is the government's office portfolio. It's close to seven million square metres of offices. We're doing an active review, in light of all the changes in the workplace, of our future needs for that space, but that space requires ongoing rejuvenation, renovation and replacement, so that's one big area.

We have other capital projects as well in what we call “engineering assets”. This would be work on bridges and other assets across the country. We have the plan of work that was noted on the parliamentary precinct, which is a very large undertaking with multiple phases in the work.

Those are some of the categories of work.

I don't know if my CFO, Wojo, wants to add anything on the nature of the ups and downs of the capital envelope.

[Wojo Zielonka, Assistant Deputy Minister and Chief Financial Officer, Department of Public Works and Government Services]

Sure. Thank you, Deputy Thompson.

There are a lot of things that we, as a department.... As the deputy mentioned, it varies from dams to bridges and office buildings. There's 875 Heron Road; West Memorial Building, which you may be familiar with; and Timiskaming Dam. The variety of projects is quite diverse, and the timing of when capital is required for those projects depends on the particular ramp-up and ramp-down of a particular project.

Those numbers vary quite a bit over time.

[Majid Jowhari, Liberal, Richmond Hill, ON]

Is the focus of these investments on maintenance, refurbishment or greening, or is it a combination?

[Wojo Zielonka]

It is a combination. We have some very large projects like, for example, the ESAP project, which is something here in the national capital area that is very focused on greening. It is to upgrade the centralized heating and air conditioning facilities for the federal government, and it will have a huge benefit in reducing greenhouse emissions. That's one example.

There are other projects where we are refurbishing existing assets, in particular in the office portfolio. Promenade du Portage is one that may be quite visible for any person who's crossing over the river. They will see a major construction project that is ongoing there. That would be an example of a refurbishment.

As well, we have ongoing maintenance that is typically done to maintain the quality of the assets so that they do not fall into disrepair.