Government Operations Committee on May 31st, 2023

[Parm Bains, Liberal, Steveston—Richmond East, BC]

Okay.

Dental care is one of the most important forms of preventive health care, and we know it's expensive. With respect to access to dental care and the well-being of Canadians, what investments is the government making to ensure that Canadians have access to affordable dental care?

[Mona Fortier, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

As you already know, dental care is a very important investment in budget 2023. Our government is implementing this new Canadian dental care plan, which will ensure that, honestly, no Canadian has to choose between taking care of their dental health and paying the bills at the end of the month. This budget includes $13 billion over five years, starting in 2023-24, and $4.4 billion ongoing. This is to implement the Canadian dental care plan.

I don't know if you're aware, but already nearly 500,000 children under age 12 can access the Canada dental benefit. Of course, it makes them start caring for their smiles.

We're also developing the national dental program with the goal of expanding dental coverage to those who are under 18, seniors, and persons living with disability in 2023, and then full implementation, including the expanded eligibility, by 2025.

That is a very important initiative. We know that it is important to Canadians across the nation.

[Parm Bains, Liberal, Steveston—Richmond East, BC]

Thank you.

With respect to conducting a study on diversity in procurement, which is being done with our committee here, could you update this committee on what Treasury Board is doing to promote inclusivity and accessibility within the public service?

[Mona Fortier, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

Yes. Thank you.

We created the centre on diversity and inclusion to accelerate efforts to achieve a representative and inclusive public service. We launched programs to support departments in addressing barriers in recruitment and promotion at the executive levels. We're also releasing disaggregated data on equity-seeking groups. We amended the Public Service Employment Act to strengthen provisions to address potential bias and barriers in staffing processes. The Clerk of the Privy Council issued a call to action for public service, making sure that we fight racism within the public service. One last very important commitment is that we're hiring at least 5,000 new public servants living with disabilities by 2025.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Thank you.

Ms. Vignola, you have two and a half minutes, please.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Thank you very much.

I will try to be brief.

For fiscal years 2023‑24 and 2025‑26, the Treasury Board Secretariat anticipates a 7.7% decrease in full-time equivalents in administrative leadership positions, with the number of those employees dropping from 627 to 579. These figures are from the Treasury Board Secretariat departmental plan for 2023‑24. At the same time, according to the Parliamentary Budget Officer, the total number of full-time public servants is expected to reach 428,000 in 2022‑23. To my mind, administrative leadership is essential to give new employees in particular the mentoring and support they need to properly learn and perform their duties.

I am wondering if there is a disconnect between hiring more people and, at the same time, within about two years, letting go of administrative leadership specialists.

I would like to hear your thoughts on that.

[Mona Fortier, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

Let me say first that we are working very hard to maintain strong leadership in the public service. We will always want that.

Ms. Cahill, perhaps you can provide some details about attrition.

[Karen Cahill, Assistant Secretary and Chief Financial Officer, Treasury Board Secretariat]

The information in the departmental plan is taken from the main estimates. In this case, the decrease in full-time equivalents is related to the reduction in programs. Programs are ending, but they will be renewed, and the future budget will reflect that. At that point, the full-time equivalents will also be renewed.

This attrition is primarily the result of programs ending. Once the programs are renewed, the number of full-time equivalents will increase again. It is not real attrition. It is attrition on paper, so to speak.

[Mona Fortier, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Thanks very much.

Go ahead, Mr. Johns, for two and a half minutes, please.

[Mona Fortier, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

Mr. Chair, I want to apologize. I have a hard stop at a quarter to six today. I know Mr. Johns wants.... I want to hear whether we are done after Mr. Johns. Are you expecting me to stay until the...?

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

I'm sensing from both sides that we can hear from Mr. Johns and then let you go.

[Mona Fortier, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

I will hear Mr. Johns, then.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

I just need quick answers. We can get through this very fast.

When do we expect anti-scab legislation to be tabled by this government?

[Mona Fortier, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

I understand from my labour colleague that he's working very hard on it, so I would ask the minister responsible for labour. However, I understand it's by the end of the year.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

I talked to you about return-to-work disability management. You didn't get a chance to answer.

The B.C. government has invested $6 million. To give you a comparison, your government has invested $2.75 million. It's the first pilot project. I'm glad to see you stepping forward. It's needed with long COVID. We're seeing a lot of people off work in the public service.

I want you to know who is on the board of Pacific Coast University: Ken Neumann, former director of the steelworkers union; Wayne Wouters, former clerk of the Privy Council; Gary Doer, former premier of Manitoba; and Shane Simpson, former minister of poverty reduction in British Columbia.

Will you look at ensuring that this goes across departments and that we can accommodate workers and ensure people are trained on how to do that so that we don't continue with the 1% statistic?

[Mona Fortier, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

First of all, thank you for sharing that. I'm actually in a learning mode. As President of the Treasury Board, I'm always looking for opportunities to strengthen our public service. I will commit to learning more about how our government is currently working on this issue and whether there are opportunities to strengthen the policies we have.

One of the mandate items the Prime Minister gave me when I was named President of the Treasury Board was to employ 5,000 new people living with disabilities. That is something I want to continue to work on. I will do that at the same time.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

I appreciate that. I'll work with you on that, Minister, to help bring you up to speed.

I know the subject of leadership was brought up earlier. We've had various experts come to committee and talk about the importance of training in leadership. We want to fix this highly paid consulting outsourcing issue instead of just flinging mud at government. We heard from Michael Wernick that there were cuts under the Conservatives that led to this void in leadership training. It had an impact. We heard from Amanda Clarke. The PBO even cited it.

Can we get assurances that you're going to increase investments, after hearing from public servants, instead of decreasing them? Right now, it shows a decrease.

[Mona Fortier, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

First of all, I'd like everybody to know that for professional services, less than 5% is used for managing consultation or consultants. The rest is.... Examples include providing nursing services in the north and health services for veterans. We have to make sure we define “professional services” well. The fact is that it is under 5% is for consultants, as you would define them.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

However, that 5% gone up 400%.

[Mona Fortier, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

It's still under 5% of the amount.

One thing we are looking into is making sure it is a complement to the skills and expertise that we need in order to deliver our programs and services. I've committed, in my exercise of refocusing on spending, to looking at how we can make sure we find efficiencies and ways to increase the skills and competencies of public servants who deliver services to Canadians.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Minister, thank you for allowing a bit of extra time for Mr. Johns. He kept you a bit longer than we thought. Thanks for joining us today.

Colleagues, we'll excuse the minister and then we'll get to talk with with the officials.

Minister, thanks very much.

We'll wait 30 seconds to excuse the minister. Then we'll start with one round with the....

Go ahead, Mrs. Kusie, for five minutes, please.

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

Thank you very much, Chair.

Thank you very much to the president's team for being here today. It's very much appreciated.

According to the PBO, “Budget 2023 doe not identify opportunities to save and reallocate resources 'to adapt government programs and operations to a new post-pandemic reality'” under the strategic policy review launched in last year's budget.

Why do you, as the officials, believe that this was not allocated in your department as well as across government through the estimates and budget 2023?

[Annie Boudreau]

Thank you very much for the question.

As referred to by the PBO, the first time that the strategic policy review was announced was in the federal budget for 2022. At that time, it was said that an update would be provided in budget 2023. The update was provided at the end of March.

Basically, what has been included in the budget is a continuation of what was included in budget 2022, with an increase. Budget 2022 was $6 billion in efficiencies over five years; now we have more than $15 billion in five years. In budget 2022, the ongoing amount was $3 billion. This time around, the ongoing amount is $4.5 billion.

The strategic policy review has not been cancelled; it was just renamed in budget 2023, and we are continuing on that path.

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

In that case, do you expect this reallocation to come up in supplementary estimates for the 2023-24 fiscal year?