Evidence of meeting #70 for Government Operations and Estimates in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was redacted.
A video is available from Parliament.
4:35 p.m.
NDP
Gord Johns NDP Courtenay—Alberni, BC
I'm going to go back to Mr. Shea.
Mr. Shea, where is the line? When you're drawing the line on whether to redact a document or not, when it's in the public's interest or in the government's interest, where do you find the line? I'll start with that first of all. Where's the line?
4:35 p.m.
Assistant Secretary to the Cabinet, Ministerial Services and Corporate Affairs and Chief Financial Officer, Privy Council Office
I think in each case, we would consult with the Department of Justice when it comes to making a decision to override, for example, personal information. There are situations where personal information is released because it's in the public's interest to do so.
When it comes to cabinet confidence, I think it's a much broader discussion and involves other consultations. Again, the Department of Justice is really the lead for that, and it wouldn't be me.
4:35 p.m.
NDP
4:35 p.m.
Assistant Secretary to the Cabinet, Ministerial Services and Corporate Affairs and Chief Financial Officer, Privy Council Office
There's no political involvement.
4:35 p.m.
Assistant Secretary to the Cabinet, Ministerial Services and Corporate Affairs and Chief Financial Officer, Privy Council Office
It would be the same under both.
For cabinet confidences, I believe the Prime Minister needs to approve that, but I would have to check that.
4:35 p.m.
NDP
Gord Johns NDP Courtenay—Alberni, BC
How do we know there are no things like...?
Ms. Hudon, I'm going to put you on the spot a bit. The cost of the chauffeur, which I raised with you, when you flew him to Vancouver twice, was almost as much I spent in a year travelling to B.C. and back. How do we know that there aren't more things like that redacted, things that the public should know about?
How do we ensure that it's not hiding information that's going to embarrass the government and that it's duly protected to protect the Canadian government, the taxpayer and, ultimately, the beneficiaries, as Mr. Leduc talked about in terms of the pension plan?
4:35 p.m.
Assistant Secretary to the Cabinet, Ministerial Services and Corporate Affairs and Chief Financial Officer, Privy Council Office
I can't speak for every department, but I would say in general and certainly at PCO, we have dedicated experts doing these types of redactions. They're the same folks who do access to information requests, and this is what they do. They have no vested interest in one document versus another. They just want to be consistent in the way redactions are applied.
If there's personal information, it's redacted. If there are cabinet confidences, they're redacted. If it's national security and so on.... It's not about if this would embarrass somebody versus not embarrass them. That is not part of the criteria.
4:40 p.m.
NDP
Gord Johns NDP Courtenay—Alberni, BC
Mr. Leduc, in terms of the impact on the Canadian pension plan, what is the potential impact, the bottom line, in terms of the person receiving their pension? What could be the impact?
4:40 p.m.
Senior Managing Director and Global Head, Public Affairs & Communications, Canada Pension Plan Investment Board
It would erode our ability to do what we've been doing, which is that, out of the $570-billion fund today, $400 billion is from our net profit. Our ability to be the leading investor in the world, which we are, based on financial performance over 10 years, requires us to be very commercial and very sensitive—
4:40 p.m.
Conservative
4:40 p.m.
Senior Managing Director and Global Head, Public Affairs & Communications, Canada Pension Plan Investment Board
It's $570 billion.
4:40 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley
Mr. Leduc, I'm sorry. That is our time.
Colleagues, we're going to suspend. Then we'll come back after, hopefully, one vote.
5:05 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley
Colleagues, we are back in session.
Witnesses, thank you for bearing with us.
We'll start right back with Mr. Nater for five minutes, please.
June 5th, 2023 / 5:05 p.m.
Conservative
John Nater Conservative Perth—Wellington, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chair, and through you, thank you to our witnesses for joining us here this afternoon.
Mr. Shea, in your opening comments you noted that you respect the role of Parliament. My concern is, and I don't say this facetiously, that I'm not sure you understand the role of Parliament. You mentioned in a response to Mr. Barrett that you're not a legal expert—neither am I. I'm a farm kid from Logan township, but when I don't understand something, I seek out experts.
My question to you is this: What expertise did you seek out on parliamentary procedure and on the authority of Parliament to send for documents?
5:05 p.m.
Assistant Secretary to the Cabinet, Ministerial Services and Corporate Affairs and Chief Financial Officer, Privy Council Office
I consulted, in advance of appearing at this committee, our legislative House planning team within the Privy Council Office, along with our legal counsel, to refresh my memory on the protocols that are in place for dealing with parliamentary committees, along with the reasons that certain information must be redacted. I did that consultation.
5:05 p.m.
Conservative
John Nater Conservative Perth—Wellington, ON
Did you seek the advice of the parliamentary law clerk?
5:05 p.m.
Assistant Secretary to the Cabinet, Ministerial Services and Corporate Affairs and Chief Financial Officer, Privy Council Office
I did not consult the parliamentary law clerk.
5:05 p.m.
Conservative
John Nater Conservative Perth—Wellington, ON
I get the impression, sir, that despite the fact that you're an assistant secretary to cabinet, you don't fully understand the authority of Parliament. Parliament's authority to call for papers, to call for documents, is unfettered. You mentioned solicitor-client privilege. Are you aware that Parliament can call for any document that goes against solicitor-client privilege? Are you aware of that?
5:05 p.m.
Assistant Secretary to the Cabinet, Ministerial Services and Corporate Affairs and Chief Financial Officer, Privy Council Office
Again, the successive governments have had the same point of view on this, which is that there are exceptions that must be applied and have been consistently applied for several governments in a row.
5:05 p.m.
Conservative
John Nater Conservative Perth—Wellington, ON
Again, sir, do you know what the difference is between government and Parliament?
5:05 p.m.
Assistant Secretary to the Cabinet, Ministerial Services and Corporate Affairs and Chief Financial Officer, Privy Council Office
There's a separation, clearly, between the different branches of government.
5:05 p.m.
Conservative
John Nater Conservative Perth—Wellington, ON
Are you aware that Parliament is supreme in its ability to call for documents? Regardless of what the government says, Parliament has unfettered access to call for documents.
5:05 p.m.
Assistant Secretary to the Cabinet, Ministerial Services and Corporate Affairs and Chief Financial Officer, Privy Council Office
I respect the role of Parliament, and I absolutely respect its authority. I must, at the same time, respect the legal opinions that have been provided by the Department of Justice and the time-honoured traditions that have gone on between successive governments in terms of how to approach parliamentary document production.