Government Operations Committee on June 21st, 2023

[Harriet Solloway]

I can't really say at this point because I do not have enough information about how the commissioner's office is run. However, what I have noticed is that the ability to complete investigations in less than a year seems to pose a challenge for this office. I don't know yet why that is the case. I would have to look at that to see what improvements could be made. It is also possible that the situation can't be helped given the circumstances.

For now, I don't know, but I hope that the commissioner's office already has the necessary resources.

[Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay, Bloc, Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC]

That's fine. Thank you.

We know that you will be learning about this position. There will be a sort of listening and learning process. If the situation requires it, who will you consult first? What would be your first reflex, so to speak?

[Harriet Solloway]

The first people I would consult would be the staff of the commissioner's office because I think that they are in the best position to know what is going on. Next, with their support, I would identify the stakeholders or those who are somehow involved in the office's mandate to get their perspective. As I mentioned earlier, I would consult the ombudsmen. I'm sorry. I don't know what the word is in French.

[Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay, Bloc, Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC]

The term “ombudsman” can be used in French and English.

[Harriet Solloway]

Thank you.

I would consult the ombudsmen and perhaps those who work in human resources just to get an idea of the trends so that I know how to better meet the needs of the public sector.

[Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay, Bloc, Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC]

You said that you would consult the ombudsmen and employees. However, this committee has heard from whistleblowers, whistleblowing experts, and representatives of whistleblowing non-governmental organizations or NGOs. Would you also consult them?

[Harriet Solloway]

Of course. I thought you were asking who I would consult first. Obviously, I would consult the experts and look at the best practices of other organizations. I think we can always learn from each other. Obviously, I would not limit my consultations to the two groups I mentioned first.

[Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay, Bloc, Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC]

That is good. Other than experts, would you consult with the NGOs and the whistleblowers themselves?

[Harriet Solloway]

Absolutely.

[Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay, Bloc, Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC]

Okay.

How much time do I have left, Mr. Chair?

Forty seconds? That will be all for this round.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Mr. Johns, go ahead.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

Thank you for being here.

Before I get started, I want to acknowledge that it's Indigenous Peoples Day. I'm not able to be home with the people in the community where I live, the Hupacasath and Tseshaht people, but I do want to acknowledge that we are doing business on the land of the Anishinabe and Algonquin peoples. I want to wish a happy Indigenous Peoples Day to all indigenous people across Canada from coast to coast to coast.

Ms. Solloway, you have quite an esteemed career. I want to thank you for your service in serving on the international criminal tribunal, the International Criminal Court, the United Nations. The work that you've done around this is extensive in terms of human rights.

There are concerns that this office, I think you know.... Have you been following Bill C-290?

[Harriet Solloway]

I've been following it as best I can, yes.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

I think you can sense, from the concerns from the whistle-blowers and the public servants who have come forward, that there is a lack of trust; they don't feel the office has been safe, confidential and independent. This is an independent agent of Parliament who reports to Parliament.

What are you going to do to ensure that this changes so that whistle-blowers feel confident that they can come forward when there's wrongdoing?

[Harriet Solloway]

Over the course of my career.... I think you could probably say many things about me, but one of them is that I'm very due process-oriented and very fairness-oriented. Whether one likes or doesn't like the outcome, to me it's very important that everybody's rights be protected. That will never waiver. I think the way we gain trust is to demonstrate that we are worthy of the trust, making sure that people know what they can expect if they engage with the office, making sure that they know they can trust us to not put them in harm's way.

Whether it is the whistle-blower or the person who is accused, at the end of the day, it would be important to me that they feel that they were respected, that their rights were respected and that they were heard. It's clear that, at the end of any process such as this, some people may be happier than others. Usually nobody is quite happy. If they are happy that they got what they could have expected from the office—which is fairness, due process, and respect—then I'm confident that we will gain the confidence of the public sector.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

Are you aware of the results so far of the previous office, before you entered into it?

[Harriet Solloway]

I've read different briefs. I've read reports. I was, unfortunately, not able to listen to all of the debate on Bill C-290. I regret that—

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

Bill C-290 aside, in terms of whistle-blowers coming forward, the results are dismal. The outcomes are really clear. If I were working in the public service, would I dare to come forward, given the results and the outcomes so far? I wouldn't. I wouldn't even think about it.

How are you going to change the confidence of the public servants so that there are real results and so that they see there's someone in their corner?

[Harriet Solloway]

It's my understanding that this office is meant to be a neutral party in the process, and it's my understanding—I mean this with all due respect—that the office shouldn't be in anybody's corner. The office needs to protect everybody's rights.

As a former defence lawyer, I'm well aware that sometimes people are not guilty. I'm also aware that sometimes they're guilty and they are not found guilty. I understand that, but as a neutral entity, I regret that I don't think it would be the role of the commissioner to be in anybody's corner.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

That's the right answer.

Whom will you consult with in terms of...? Will you be consulting with some of the stakeholders who came forward who didn't feel that was the case and who felt that, maybe, there was a tilt of the hand of the previous commissioner? How are you going to embrace them and listen to their concerns, because they have a lot to offer?

[Harriet Solloway]

If anybody who has anything to offer by way of insight is willing to speak to me, I would be delighted to hear from them to gain a better understanding as to how all parties to the process are reacting to the process and what they perceive the process to be, including its weaknesses. Absolutely, I welcome any whistle-blower or any person who was involved in prior cases coming forward, so that I can learn from their experience.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

What will be the key factors to ensure that there's a proper investigation that happens under your office?

[Harriet Solloway]

A proper investigation is a complete investigation. That's why I alluded before to the fact that I don't know yet whether or not one year is a reasonable time period to be able to do that. It's because I don't know all the challenges of the mechanics of the investigations.

I think a complete investigation is the best way to do that.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Thank you very much, Mr. Johns.

Ms. Solloway, that is our time.

Before you go, to follow up on Mr. Savard-Tremblay's questions about what you're going to do, I would urge you, as someone who's been on this committee and was a large part of the 2017 report—I'm going to plug that—to read the entire report and all of the testimony, and the testimony from Bill C-290, before you spend one second with the internal folks.

To follow up on Mr. Johns' comments on your comments about not being in anyone's corner, I would just urge you, again, to listen to the testimony of some of the victims of the retribution from the government. We realize you have to follow the rules, but one whistle-blower against the entire strength of the government that's coming down on them.... I realize there's a certain neutrality that's required, but there's also a realization of one person against the unlimited resources of the government to go after someone. I would just urge you on that.

I thank you for your time.

Colleagues, that is it for us—

[Majid Jowhari, Liberal, Richmond Hill, ON]

I have a procedural question.

Do we have to confirm her?