Government Operations Committee on June 21st, 2023

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

How do we move forward? I'm going to go back to that, Mr. Shea. How do we get a pathway through this?

Obviously, I think we need to study this terrible policy that was created by the Conservatives, which protects Liberals and Conservatives when they are in government from getting information to the committee, to MPs and to the public.

How do we move forward in terms of the stalemate we're in right now at this committee in trying to get access to the information without tearing down government by requesting 220,000 pages to get to the bottom of what's going on here?

[Matthew Shea]

I would not seek to give advice to the committee on how to move forward, but I would reiterate what I have said before.

We are happy to work with parliamentary committees. In fact, “Open and Accountable Government” encourages departments and ministers to work with parliamentary committees to find consensus and to find compromise.

As I reflected on my last appearance, I did look at previous rulings from the Speaker of the House. I know that was raised last time. I would note that in 2010, Speaker Milliken did give a ruling that talked about safeguarding this. He referred to House of Commons Procedure and Practice, second edition, and quoted pages 1,068 and 1,069, which talked about how “[p]articular attention is paid to the questioning of public servants—

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

That is our time, Mr. Shea.

Thanks very much.

[Matthew Shea]

I'd be pleased to read that into the record later.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Put it in writing and send it to us, please.

Mrs. Block, you have five minutes, please.

[Kelly Block, Conservative, Carlton Trail—Eagle Creek, SK]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Perhaps this is a good segue to the request I have of Mr. Shea. I would ask that Mr. Shea please provide us with the policy document that he's referencing and attributing to the Conservative Party.

If you wouldn't mind, could you send that to this committee so that we can take a look at it? It's the historical document that you've attributed to the Conservative Party of Canada.

[Matthew Shea]

If I could add clarity, it is not related to a party. It is related to the Government of Canada. It would have been the Conservative government, approved by the Prime Minister. It is not about the Conservative Party or the Liberal Party.

[Kelly Block, Conservative, Carlton Trail—Eagle Creek, SK]

Fine. If you could send the document you've referenced that was created by the Government of Canada when the Conservatives were in government, I would appreciate that.

[Matthew Shea]

I would be pleased to do so.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Thanks, Mrs. Block.

Mrs. Block yields her time.

Mr. Jowhari, go ahead.

[Majid Jowhari, Liberal, Richmond Hill, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I have a quick question for Ms. Wademan, and then a request for Mr. Shea.

Ms. Wademan, I understand that you are the CEO of the Canada Development Investment Corporation. Can you briefly tell us what your mandate is and why you felt that those redactions were needed because it may be impacting your mandate?

[Elizabeth Wademan, President and Chief Executive Officer, Canada Development Investment Corporation]

CDEV is a federal Crown corporation that provides specialized financial advice to the Department of Finance. We're also responsible for a number of large subsidiaries, including their oversight, and standing up and incubating new entities.

In regard to the redactions of the McKinsey document, CDEV went out of its way to redact as little as possible. We did undertake certain redactions, and they pertained to information in the report that identified confidential business information of third parties. We also redacted information that could harm the economic interests of Canada.

[Majid Jowhari, Liberal, Richmond Hill, ON]

Thank you.

My request to Mr. Shea is this: Can you, sir, kindly undertake a search through completed ATIPs to find the emails that Mrs. Kusie read into the record between Paul Mackinnon and Maia Welbourne on June 6? We requested that, I believe, last time as well. If you could undertake that and submit it to the committee in writing, it would be really appreciated.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I yield the rest of my time.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Thank you very much, Mr. Jowhari.

Before we dismiss our witnesses, Ms. Bernier, if you don't mind, could you clarify something for the committee, please? In your remarks, it sounded as if you were intimating that the costs of operations or the costs of the translation would possibly result in reduced pension payouts. I'm wondering if you'd like to clarify that response. I think it's very clear what your response was, but I'd like to give you the opportunity to clarify that response, please, especially in light of paragraph 5.6 of the funding policy for the public sector pension plans, which clearly shows that costs are borne by the government.

[Mélanie Bernier]

What I mean is that our operating costs are netted against our returns, and what is then—

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

But the pensions are guaranteed. It's a defined plan. They're guaranteed. These operating costs would not result in reduced pensions in any way.

I wanted to give you a chance to clarify that, because your comments—I'll be blunt—were extremely misleading. I'm surprised that a person in your position would make such blatantly misleading comments. I'm glad you had an opportunity to clarify that public service pensions would not be reduced. PSPIB has hundreds of millions in operating expenses, and many millions are spent on bonuses, so I find it shocking that $100,000 in translation costs would possibly affect pensions. I'm glad we had an opportunity to clear that up.

Witnesses, you are dismissed.

We will suspend for a very brief moment to welcome our nominee in the next round.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Members, we are back.

We welcome Ms. Solloway to our committee for a short period.

We'll have a five-minute opening statement, and then we'll have a round of one six-minute intervention from each party.

Ms. Solloway, welcome to the operations and estimates committee, which I call “the mighty OGGO”.

You have five minutes.

[Harriet Solloway, As an Individual]

Thank you.

Mr. Chair and members of the committee, thank you so much for providing me the opportunity to be here today and for your consideration of my nomination. I am very grateful.

As a long-serving international public servant, I have consistently demonstrated my commitment to the rule of law, including due process and access to justice. In a public service context, that requires a safe space in which personnel can come forward and be heard when there are concerns that, if left unaddressed, could shake public confidence and cause serious threat to the integrity of the public service, casting a pall over the work environment for dedicated personnel and impeding the ability to deliver quality service that is owed to the public.

The Public Sector Integrity Commissioner is the guardian of procedural fairness in the investigation of wrongdoing, including due process for whistle-blowers, for the subjects of our allegations of wrongdoing and for other participants in the process, with overarching objectives of promoting an ethical public service culture in the federal government.

This is a critical juncture for the office of the PSIC, with active consideration of Bill C-290, as well as the work of the external task force appointed to explore revisions to the act. I look forward to co-operating with the task force and to the faithful implementation of the Public Servants Disclosure Protection Act, including any amendments that may emerge.

My career includes experience in labour relations, law, and management both domestically and internationally, including more than 22 years at the senior executive level in the international public sector at the International Criminal Court, the United Nations, and the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe and others.

As a pioneer of programs to rebuild and transform justice systems in challenging circumstances, I have successfully led multiple strategic and change management efforts. In several positions, most notably as a legal adviser in conflict zones, such as Kosovo and the Central African Republic, and the Director of Rule of Law in the Democratic Republic of the Congo, I oversaw human rights reports ensuring the accuracy of evidence-based allegations, while considering other factors such as witness and informant protection.

I have extensive global experience in the development and implementation of investigation and policy strategies to address serious crimes and human rights abuses. As the Legal Adviser for Sex Crimes at the International Criminal Tribunal for Rwanda, I guided the investigation that led to the first conviction for sex crimes in an international tribunal, the Akayesu case.

During the course of my career, I've investigated crimes, defended accused and built cases for the prosecution in criminal proceedings. I have worked for the protection of witnesses and engaged in capacity building for judges and investigators, all of which provides me with the perspective to be truly neutral, unbiased and fair to all. This, along with my laser focus on due process protections for all parties, will provide the foundation for the approach I will take as commissioner.

Lastly, our dedicated civil servants deserve a workplace where they feel safe and proud of the work they do. I commit to the unwavering objective of exposing wrongdoing and fostering trust in an ethical public sector for our personnel in the 134 government institutions subject to the act, and for the Canadian people.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Thank you very much.

We'll start with Mrs. Kusie for six minutes, please.

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

Thank you very much, Ms. Solloway.

Welcome to the government operations committee, “the mighty OGGO”, as our chair refers to it.

Can you tell us, please, when you were informed that you had the nomination?

[Harriet Solloway]

I'm not sure, but I'm guessing it was shortly before it was announced. There were discussions leading up to it, but in my mind, anyway, it was not assured until very shortly, like a day or two, before the formal announcement was made. I can't tell you the exact date; I'm sorry.

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

Remind me when the announcement was made.

[Harriet Solloway]

I would have to verify that. I'm going to say approximately a month ago, but I'm not sure.

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

Can you tell me about the final conversation you had with the President of the Treasury Board prior to receiving the nomination, please?

[Harriet Solloway]

That followed a process that was very similar to the process in other organizations, like the UN.

I had already taken a test. I assume I was short-listed for a panel interview. I went through that interview. A period of time after that—I could not be exact as to the period—I was contacted and told that the minister would like a few words with me. We had a few words. Even at that time, she did not, at all, commit to the nomination. It was just, “Okay, thank you very much.” It was probably about 10 minutes in length.