Government Operations Committee on June 21st, 2023

Until I get into the job, I don't really know the mechanics of how I will do it. I also, of course, await the outcomes of Bill C-290, as well as the review. I do have some notions of how it's been done elsewhere.

I think, first and foremost, people have to have trust in the office. They have to know about the office, and then have trust in it. One thing I would do is reach out to those in other parts of the system who may have positive contact with staff members who may find themselves in difficult situations, such as ombudspersons who may exist in different organizations or human resource persons who may have knowledge of trends. I would receive information from them, or consult with them, as to how they think we should approach raising the profile of the office and making it most effective.

It's hard for me to be more specific at this stage, other than to say that I would faithfully implement the mandate. In terms of the details beyond that, I'm unable to give you many more specifics, as I really haven't been in the system.

6:25 p.m.

Conservative

Stephanie Kusie Conservative Calgary Midnapore, AB

Sure. Thank you.

You mentioned the cases where you felt you were able to listen to two sides and—pardon me if I'm poorly paraphrasing—determine a fair outcome, or what you believe was the right outcome. Can you give us an example of a case that stands out in your mind? Perhaps there's a difficult one, or one where you were particularly proud of the outcome in terms of having navigated a complicated situation. Is there something from your background or experience that you can draw upon, or a specific time that you feel was particularly pertinent to the work that you'll be doing here?

As an Individual

I'm struggling to find a case. I didn't have an adjudicative role in any of my functions, so that's a little bit tricky. I have been the chair of several boards of inquiry. During the boards of inquiry, I sought information as the chair—the whole board of inquiry sought information from relevant parties, from witnesses to various incidents.

There was one case—actually the first case of sexual exploitation and abuse—that was in the DRC when I was there. There was a colonel of a particular contingent, which I prefer not to name, against whom certain allegations were made. It turned out to be true, so some of the witnesses were traumatized. One has to know how to approach that. I had been a legal adviser for sex crimes at the Rwanda tribunal, so I was already, I think, quite experienced in being able to interact with people who had been traumatized and to elicit from them the information needed to get a better picture of the circumstances.

Notwithstanding that, although I had this information or these testimonies, having been a defence lawyer, I never took for granted that everything was complete, or that one perspective was the only perspective. Of course I listened, as part of the panel, to the person who was accused of these wrongdoings. Together with the panel, we came to a recommendation for our hierarchy.

I'm not sure if that answers the question, Mr. Chair.

Conservative

Stephanie Kusie Conservative Calgary Midnapore, AB

Thank you.

Thank you, Chair.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley

Thank you very much.

Ms. Thompson, you have six minutes, please.

Liberal

Joanne Thompson Liberal St. John's East, NL

Thank you.

Welcome to the committee.

I want to circle back to the previous question about the nomination panel. Could you provide more detail on how you attested and interviewed in that nomination process, and what skills specifically were evaluated?

As an Individual

I don't remember, but it was a competency-based interview, very much like other interviews that I had been a part of in the UN, both as an applicant and as a panel member. They went along the lines of “Can you give us an example when you would have demonstrated this competency or that competency?”

I must say I don't specifically recall what the competencies were. Having been familiar with that type of interview, I was able to draw on examples from my past to illustrate my capability for the different competencies. That, of course, came after the test. I do not remember the questions on the test. I'm very sorry. That is what I recall.

Liberal

Joanne Thompson Liberal St. John's East, NL

Thank you.

Based on your international experience, what types of measures work, in your opinion, to address retaliatory responses in the workplace?

As an Individual

I think there are certain measures that.... I'm speaking generically here, because every organization is different and is structured differently, so I can't speak to the Government of Canada.

In an ideal situation, one tries to avoid a situation where there might be retaliation. I don't know what measures are permitted under the human resource rules of the Canadian civil service, so I'm unable to provide specifics as to what the options would be. In other organizations, for example, it could mean changing reporting lines pending the outcome of a complaint or an issue, or permanently. It could be asking whether the individual who has made the complaint wishes to move to another area temporarily, but not to be forced. The same option might be given in some circumstances to the person who is accused of wrongdoing. The person accused of wrongdoing, depending on the strength of the prima facie evidence, might be put on administrative leave with or without pay—usually with pay, but not necessarily.

There are a number of measures that one can take to keep the staff member in a protected environment so that they don't feel threatened for having blown the whistle.

Liberal

Joanne Thompson Liberal St. John's East, NL

Thank you.

We've heard certainly in this committee a number of public servants who expressed their skepticism with whistle-blowing protection. How could you help improve that trust in your role as commissioner?

As an Individual

How could I improve that? It is vitally important for the word to get around that if one engages with the office, they will be protected. For word to get around, the office has to perform as it should perform. I must say that it can't be one office alone. The safety that a person might feel has to also emanate from other parts of the organization. There is often stigma attached to being the person who raises an issue even when everybody else knows the issue is there. Human nature is human nature. It's a whole-of-organization responsibility. I think that is something that, together with relevant stakeholders and counterparts, we could discuss to see how people can be made to feel safe anywhere in the system. It cannot emanate from the office alone.

Liberal

Joanne Thompson Liberal St. John's East, NL

Thank you.

I'm going to see if I can get in one more question.

Are you comfortable to work in both official languages?

As an Individual

Yes, I'm used to working in French. In the Democratic Republic of Congo and in the Central Africa Republic, I worked exclusively in French.

I haven't had to do so for some time now because I have been working in English in New York for about seven years. As a result, my French is a bit rusty and I apologize for that, but I'm not at all concerned about my ability to work in French.

Liberal

Joanne Thompson Liberal St. John's East, NL

Yesterday, we completed the study on Bill C-290. How would your experience in change management help with its implementation, should this receive royal ascent?

As an Individual

I think my experience would be very valuable. One of the first things to do is make staff members feel comfortable, because, typically, when there is a change, staff members are very concerned about what that means for their roles and positions—what might be expected of them. As a leader, one has to reassure people that they will have a place and that we will figure it all out together and involve them in any change management that occurs. That's critical. Involving stakeholders is also critical, but, particularly for changes that affect an office, one must involve the people in the office so they don't feel things are being done to them, but rather with them.

Liberal

Joanne Thompson Liberal St. John's East, NL

Thank you.

Could you explain to Canadians why whistle-blowing is important, and why we need to protect a whistle-blower?

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley

Give a very brief answer, please.

As an Individual

I think that, if we expect integrity in the public service, we necessarily rely on people who have access to that kind of information coming forward. It may not be the only way, but it's certainly one of the main ways. It can often be the linchpin in achieving integrity in a federal public service.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley

Thank you very much.

Mr. Savard-Tremblay, welcome to OGGO. Go ahead for six minutes, please.

Bloc

Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay Bloc Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Mrs. Solloway.

I will help you to practise your French by asking you questions in French. Of course, you can answer in the language of your choice since there are interpretation services available, but it might be good practice for you since you want to get used to speaking French again. There is nothing wrong with your French, by the way. I commend you for that.

I want to follow up on my colleague's question. You spoke about how you are in favour of protecting whistleblowers. Could you elaborate on that?

6:40 p.m.

As an Individual

I'm sorry, but I'm not sure I understood your question.

6:40 p.m.

Bloc

Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay Bloc Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC

You answered a question about how you experienced situations involving whistleblowers. What do you think about providing them with additional legal protection?

6:40 p.m.

As an Individual