Evidence of meeting #80 for Government Operations and Estimates in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was rcmp.
A video is available from Parliament.
Chief Technology Officer, Treasury Board Secretariat
That would have been done by my team.
Liberal
Majid Jowhari Liberal Richmond Hill, ON
If there is a contract that is less than $500,000, you don't get involved, but when there is the use of a $21.2-million contract, do you still not get involved?
Chief Technology Officer, Treasury Board Secretariat
My managers and senior executives are subdelegated. In terms of the subdelegation and what they—
Liberal
Majid Jowhari Liberal Richmond Hill, ON
What's your authorization limit? What contract limit do you look at, from a dollar value?
Chief Technology Officer, Treasury Board Secretariat
In terms of who is engaged, it's not only a question of dollar value, it's a question of risk. In terms of dollar amounts and risk, they are, and I count on them to—
Liberal
Majid Jowhari Liberal Richmond Hill, ON
My apologies for interrupting, but it will be very hard to believe that an application that was supposed to save the lives of millions of people coming in is not considered as a high risk. I honestly cannot understand why, after all this time, we still don't have an answer.
Madam O'Gorman, I'll spend the rest of my time directing my questions to you.
Can you talk about what the difference is in the escalation process in 2021, when it was brought to the then president about the misconduct, and the fact that this time, on the second round, it was brought directly to you and you acted on it? Where is the mess?
President, Canada Border Services Agency
I can't speak to what happened in 2021 and to whom the allegations were raised. I received an email from one of the partners of Botler AI, indicating that she had information relating to misconduct in the CBSA.
Liberal
Majid Jowhari Liberal Richmond Hill, ON
Mr. Ossowski, my apologies, but did you receive direct communication from Botler in 2021?
As an Individual
I did not, and the agency verified my records that I did not.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley
That's your time, I'm afraid.
We have Ms. Vignola for two and a half minutes, please.
Bloc
Julie Vignola Bloc Beauport—Limoilou, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I want to pick up on my earlier question about how not a single public servant reported the situation.
Is it possible that the CBSA has a code of silence or that staff have a fear of reprisal if they speak out against a decision, position or practice originating from a higher‑up? Does that exist?
President, Canada Border Services Agency
It doesn't exist.
As the agency's president, I prioritize sound stewardship, responsibility and accountability, especially when it comes to managers. We have systems and processes in place to help them with those things.
As I said, when I found out about the problem with the contracts or the contracting process at the agency, I took a number of steps, which I talked about.
Do any of the agency's 15,000 employees have a different view than I do? Maybe, but as the president, I make it clear that I expect things to be managed in accordance with CBSA and Treasury Board policies and processes.
Bloc
Julie Vignola Bloc Beauport—Limoilou, QC
Thank you.
I'd like you to clarify something for me.
Is the RCMP investigating allegations of misconduct by three companies involved in the development of the ArriveCAN app, or is it investigating the ArriveCAN app specifically?
President, Canada Border Services Agency
I won't speak for the RCMP, which, I believe, sent information for clarification purposes.
In the fall of 2022, my professional integrity director sent me information regarding the allegations.
Bloc
Julie Vignola Bloc Beauport—Limoilou, QC
Do the allegations pertain to the three companies or the ArriveCAN app?
President, Canada Border Services Agency
The allegations pertain to Botler AI's contract with the agency.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley
Thanks, Ms. O'Gorman.
We have Mr. Johns for two and a half minutes, please.
NDP
Gord Johns NDP Courtenay—Alberni, BC
Mr. Doan, you stated that you didn't believe that Antonio Utano shared the September 2021 report with you.
If he didn't.... You were his direct superior during this period. Is that correct?
NDP
Gord Johns NDP Courtenay—Alberni, BC
That's even worse, because it sounds like he received the complaint but he was also the technical authority listed for the Dalian contract, which paid for the Botler contract. Can you speak about how this happened and how you feel about not being informed about it if that's the case?
Chief Technology Officer, Treasury Board Secretariat
I would go back to.... I expect all of my managers and certainly senior executives to conduct themselves around following values and ethics and a code of conduct, especially around anything that has contracting. I rely on them to raise to my attention anything that needs my engagement or intervention.