Government Operations Committee on Oct. 24th, 2023

[Minh Doan]

I believe, as my colleague at CBSA has said, that this is currently under investigation.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

You don't know who made the decision.

[Minh Doan]

Not to my knowledge....

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Okay, so none of you know who made the decision to hire these two guys, according to your testimony?

[Minh Doan]

I can say, based on memory, that my team made the decision.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Who...?

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

Who made the final decision?

[Minh Doan]

At this time, to my knowledge, I do not know, and it's part of the investigation that's currently under way.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Okay, so two guys got over $11 million from the Government of Canada to do no work, and none of you know who made the decision to give them that contract, but you're currently investigating. I'm glad the RCMP and not just you are investigating.

Mr. Chair, I would like to have a look at the emails that were sent or received from these witnesses who use the words Firth, Anthony or GC Strategies from March 2020 to present.

Can the department provide those within 30 days? Does the committee agree to ask for those documents within 30 days?

[Erin O'Gorman]

Without knowing the volume and the required translation, I don't think we could commit to a timeline, but we will endeavour to respond to that.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

I'm going to interrupt.

That is a committee motion, so it will be required in 30 days, please.

You have 15 seconds.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Thank you.

I would also like to request the calendars of these three witnesses from March 2020 to present. Will the committee agree to request that information within 30 days?

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Yes. So be it.

We will finish up with Mr. Bains for five minutes.

Before I forget, witnesses, besides the 30-day one just mentioned by Mr. Genuis, OGGO has passed a motion that any other documents asked for, like those of Mr. Johns, are required to be back within three weeks of today. Thanks very much.

Mr. Bains, you have five minutes.

[Parm Bains, Liberal, Steveston—Richmond East, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I think we can all agree that so far what we have heard is pretty concerning.

I want to go back to Mr. Doan.

You mentioned earlier that it's your team. Who's on the team? How many people are on this team?

[Minh Doan]

At the time I was in that position, I had approximately 1,400 employees.

[Parm Bains, Liberal, Steveston—Richmond East, BC]

Does that mean 1,400 employees are making this decision for a contract?

[Minh Doan]

Many of these decisions do not reside with one single individual, and many people are consulted on them. To my knowledge, I had six director generals who were reporting directly to me as well.

[Parm Bains, Liberal, Steveston—Richmond East, BC]

You had six director generals. Would they be in the know? Would they be people who would know what's going on? You would assume....

[Minh Doan]

Each director general had their own area of accountability, so in some cases it would fall under one or two director generals, and in other cases it would be more, and more people would be consulted as part of our governance process.

[Parm Bains, Liberal, Steveston—Richmond East, BC]

Maybe to Ms. O'Gorman, have those names been submitted to the RCMP, the team that's all included here? Is that all part of this investigation?

[Erin O'Gorman]

The RCMP is undertaking its own investigation, and I have no visibility, nor do I expect that I should have any visibility into the documents that they may or may not need. We will furnish them with anything they want to see.

Similarly, while I have been kept apprised of our professional integrity investigation from a process perspective, I acknowledge that the allegations are significant, and I have had updates in terms of the process. I am not aware and have not looked at the documents that they are looking at, because it is an independent process.

I am anxious for it to conclude. I understand that there is a back and forth with the RCMP, who, of course, will be able to—

[Parm Bains, Liberal, Steveston—Richmond East, BC]

Okay. On your internal audit, then, are there any updates on the findings or the process that you're going through right now internally?

[Erin O'Gorman]

There's communication with the RCMP in terms of the ability to do interviews, and there's a deference to the RCMP. There were allegations of audio recordings, and our team was working with the RCMP in terms of the most appropriate way to obtain those audio recordings. I don't know if we have obtained them. Further, there were significant amounts of material that the investigators were going through. Like I said, I have had updates in terms of the process but not in terms of the detailed pages they are looking at.

[Parm Bains, Liberal, Steveston—Richmond East, BC]

I'll go back to Mr. Doan. Considering what we've heard so far, how could the contracting process be modified to provide the federal government with more oversight on subcontractors?

[Minh Doan]

I think, based on the outcomes of the investigation and the allegations, many of the appropriate authorities, including colleagues at PSPC, should be engaged to review if there's a change or an update required in the subcontracting process. It is a fairly common process in both the private and public sectors, but I will need to get the outcomes of the investigation.