Government Operations Committee on Oct. 26th, 2023

[Amir Morv]

Perhaps. I can't speak on their behalf—

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

I've never heard of anybody doing contract work for the government and getting paid without a contract.

[Amir Morv]

Well, that's the case.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

Okay.

On the fraudulent piece, I'm really concerned about the indigenous set-aside.

Can you speak about that and how that feels—you've been paid—when you know that this money is supposed to be for indigenous procurement? Those are Canada's goals, and they tout that they're meeting the 5% threshold for all indigenous procurement.

[Amir Morv]

We were shocked when we learned that this contract was a set-aside for indigenous contracts. According to the terms of the contract, based on my understanding, individuals who work on the contract should be of indigenous origin. We are not indigenous and we would absolutely never agree to work on any indigenous contract. Those contracts should specifically be awarded to indigenous communities. They should work on those contracts.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

In the spirit of reconciliation and as a settler like me, how does it feel to see that this work isn't going to indigenous peoples, as was intended, who are the founding peoples of this place?

[Amir Morv]

We felt disgusted.

[Ritika Dutt]

I think it's a slap in the face for indigenous businesses. They believe they have an opportunity to go after those contracts, but in reality those contracts are being subcontracted and executed through parties that would not actually be eligible for those funds.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Thanks, Mr. Johns.

We'll have Mr. Genuis, please, for five minutes.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Thank you.

Mr. Chair, I'm shocked by what I'm hearing today. I never would have expected to hear this kind of testimony at a parliamentary committee in Canada.

You, our witnesses, are describing what is horrific systemic corruption in the procurement system. It's systemic government corruption. You're presenting a clear timeline and clear evidence to support those incredibly serious allegations.

Members of the government are saying that this isn't about ArriveCAN. I think it is about ArriveCAN, but it is also much bigger than just ArriveCAN.

I want to say back what I think was your description of it and get you to confirm that I have this right.

You're describing a system in which government contracts go to preferred contractors. They claim to subcontract to others, who they claim did the work. They provide reports on this, but those subcontractors might not be doing the work. They might not know they're being named, and they might not even exist in some cases. This system allows those initial contractors to overbill taxpayers and cash in big. Is that what's going on here?

[Amir Morv]

In our case, the system encouraged the contractors to do this.

That is correct.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Wow.

To your knowledge, how widespread is this system?

[Amir Morv]

If you look into today's Globe and Mail article, for only the three contractors that we're discussing, and Botler and ArriveCAN—they're the same contractors—it's half a billion dollars in the past 10 years.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Okay.

As I think you know, but just for the benefit of the public, parliamentary committees have significant powers when it comes to requesting information. I think Canadians are looking to us, the government operations committee—the mighty OGGO, as the chair likes to call it—to do all we can to get to the bottom of this. In a moment, I'm going to ask you what documents we should be requesting as a committee to help us further understand and dig into what's going on.

First, you mentioned the breadth of this.

I want to request that the committee ask for all contracts between a government department, agency or Crown corporation and GC Strategies, Dalian or Coradix, over the last eight years. I'd like to request those contracts by Tuesday of next week. Is there agreement for that request?

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Could you repeat that for the clerk, please?

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

If my time will be paused, I'll repeat it.

It's that we request all contracts between a government department, agency or Crown corporation and GC Strategies, Dalian or Coradix for the last eight years, and that those documents be provided by Tuesday.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

We're going to suspend.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

We're back.

Can we agree to this, colleagues?

Mr. Jowhari.

[Majid Jowhari, Liberal, Richmond Hill, ON]

Thank you.

We support this motion with two amendments.

One is that we'd like to go at least 12 years back. The other thing we'd like to do is get an extension. There are a lot of documents, so instead of next Tuesday, we'd ask for probably the following Tuesday, which is two weeks. A third point is that all of these are available already on open source. If you're looking for something else, we need to get clarification.

In general, we're in agreement, with those three caveats.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Chair, to be clear, it's all contracts—the full contracts—which I do not believe are available on open source.

For the last 12 years and by the following Tuesday, we agree on that. Let's proceed.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Go ahead, Mr. Johns.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

I've been through this circle. I'm not trying to give the government any more time, but I actually want the documents. I'm worried we're going to come back here in two weeks and there will be a pile of things missing and with redactions.

Why don't we go with three weeks? I want to go 12 years, but I want them. If we do two weeks, there's no way we're going to get them.

It sounds like there's a lot, with potentially half a billion dollars' worth of contracts. I want the information and the typical standard—

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Just so we can move on, are we fine with three weeks?

(Subamendment agreed to [See Minutes of Proceedings])

(Amendment as amended agreed to [See Minutes of Proceedings])

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Ms. Vignola, let's wrap this up, please.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

It will be brief. I just want to make sure that the documents will not be redacted.