Evidence of meeting #81 for Government Operations and Estimates in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was cbsa.
A video is available from Parliament.
4 p.m.
Conservative
Stephanie Kusie Conservative Calgary Midnapore, AB
Okay.
What process followed after the agreed-upon work?
4 p.m.
Chief Technology and Security Officer, Botler
Initially, for the pilot we were supposed to receive monthly payments. The pilot was supposed to be a six-month engagement. GC Strategies stated that we would be receiving monthly payments for the work.
Before we began the work, we were presented with that subcontract through an agreement between GC Strategies and Dalian. We instantly were in a shocked state, but we continued the work because we were under the impression that we could raise these issues with the CBSA. Unfortunately, the work was basically—
4 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley
Can I interrupt you for a second? Apparently our translation is not working.
Okay. It's now working.
You have about 15 seconds. Would you mind wrapping up?
4 p.m.
Chief Technology and Security Officer, Botler
Sure.
We were supposed to receive monthly payments. We never received monthly payments. Payments have been withheld—
4 p.m.
Conservative
Stephanie Kusie Conservative Calgary Midnapore, AB
Did GC Strategies ever express that they would take a cut of what you were being reimbursed?
4 p.m.
Chief Technology and Security Officer, Botler
Yes. The cut was supposed to be $50,000 on the pilot, on top of our cost, which was $350,000, but at the end we found that they added another $20,000 on their end, which was $420,000.
4 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley
Thanks, Mr. Morv.
Mr. Kusmierczyk, you have six minutes, please.
4 p.m.
Liberal
Irek Kusmierczyk Liberal Windsor—Tecumseh, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you so much, Ms. Dutt and Mr. Morv, first and foremost for bringing to life Botler AI and applying tech and AI to help root out workplace harassment and misconduct. Thank you so much for bringing this tool to Canada.
Subsequently, I want to thank you so much for your work and your diligence in bringing this serious issue to our attention. Thank you so much for your courage in bringing this forward.
A couple of days ago, we received a note from the Royal Canadian Mounted Police that the RCMP is not investigating ArriveCAN. They said that the investigation that's being conducted by the RCMP does not pertain to ArriveCAN. I know that a lot has been said, so I just want to clear up a couple of things.
Is this about ArriveCAN?
4 p.m.
Chief Technology and Security Officer, Botler
Our work is not about ArriveCAN. Our work is about Botler. I think the link between Botler and ArriveCAN is that the same contracts that were used to implement Botler were used in ArriveCAN. That's the only link. There's no other link between Botler and ArriveCAN.
4 p.m.
Chief Executive Officer, Botler
Actually, I would add to that.
The other link is that they're the same party. It's the same contractors that are involved and the same contracting authorities from the government that are also involved. There are ties, but to clarify, Botler directly had no involvement in ArriveCAN.
4 p.m.
Liberal
Irek Kusmierczyk Liberal Windsor—Tecumseh, ON
Right. I just wanted to verify that CBSA had not contracted Botler to work on ArriveCAN. This was the pilot for the workplace harassment app. Is that correct?
4 p.m.
Liberal
Irek Kusmierczyk Liberal Windsor—Tecumseh, ON
Thank you.
You initially approached CBSA in September of 2021. Can you tell us specifically what misconduct you raised when you reached out in that initial contact? I believe it was Mr. Antonio Utano you reached out to. Can you specify some of the key misconduct you flagged in that initial correspondence?
4 p.m.
Chief Technology and Security Officer, Botler
There were allegations of fraudulent billing and allegations that the terms and rules of basic procurement were broken.
There's a context here that I would like to provide. We haven't had any sort of documentation on what contracting vehicles were used in Botler. The only document that we saw was this contract between GC Strategies and Dalian.
In late August 2021, after months of going back and forth with different teams within the CBSA, everybody was confused about this project because the milestones were completely random and arbitrary. After months of going back and forth, an employee from CBSA had a call with me. During that call, this employee disclosed that they had reviewed the task authorization and they expressed serious concern. At that time, we hadn't seen the task authorization. We didn't know what was in that task authorization.
This employee raised serious concerns and told us that there was a risk for the project to move forward with the current structure, without actually explaining in detail what was there. We technically told the CBSA that there were allegations of fraudulent billing, because parties were being paid for the work that we were conducting but they were not releasing payment to Botler.
Also we raised this huge red flag that there was no contractual relationship between Botler and any of the parties, and we were not really party to any of the contracts that CBSA or other parties may have.
4:05 p.m.
Liberal
Irek Kusmierczyk Liberal Windsor—Tecumseh, ON
Fundamentally, it's no contract, no consent. Was that sort of the big red flag?
4:05 p.m.
Liberal
Irek Kusmierczyk Liberal Windsor—Tecumseh, ON
In September, you had raised that issue with Mr. Utano. You said you had also spoken with another CBSA contact.
The next important date was November 2022. I believe you raised this issue directly. You went all the way to the top, to President O'Gorman. You then provided a report that you had done internally. Can I ask you to talk about some of the misconduct that was laid out? Was there anything additional that you added in that November 2022 report?
Can you speak to why you think that CBSA responded then, after that November 2022 report, as opposed to in 2021 when it didn't respond?
4:05 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley
I'm afraid you haven't left the witnesses any time to respond. Perhaps they can in the next round.
Ms. Vignola, please, you have six minutes.
4:05 p.m.
Bloc
Julie Vignola Bloc Beauport—Limoilou, QC
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
Ms. Dutt and Mr. Morv, thank you very much for being here today.
I want to make sure I understand the whole situation.
Initially, you had a $350,000 contract. Is that correct?
4:05 p.m.
Chief Executive Officer, Botler
We were supposed to have a contract for $350,000. The contract that actually came back was for $336,000.
4:05 p.m.
Bloc
Julie Vignola Bloc Beauport—Limoilou, QC
So the final contract value was $336,000.
At the end of the day, who distributed the payments? Was it the Canada Border Services Agency or a third party?
4:05 p.m.
Chief Executive Officer, Botler
There were several layers that the payments went through. It went from CBSA to Coradix and Dalian. Coradix and Dalian then released the payments to GC Strategies. Finally, GC Strategies released the payments to Botler.
I would also add that Botler was actually not identified on any of the contracts. It was me and Amir personally.
4:05 p.m.
Bloc
Julie Vignola Bloc Beauport—Limoilou, QC
Okay.
How many payments were you supposed to receive under this contract, in which your company was ultimately not named?
4:05 p.m.
Chief Executive Officer, Botler
We were supposed to receive $350,000 in total, before taxes, for Botler's work. It came back at $336,000. We actually received only the first two payments, which came to a total of $112,000.
4:05 p.m.
Bloc
Julie Vignola Bloc Beauport—Limoilou, QC
You received two payments, but how many were you supposed to receive?