Government Operations Committee on Nov. 7th, 2023

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

Okay.

What gaps does this reveal in the process? I'm just trying to fix things here, moving forward.

[Cameron MacDonald]

When I think about this from a technology standpoint as a user of contracts, I would think that some of the gaps that may exist would be what Mr. Wood brought up. If you don't have the people attest to their CVs when they're submitted, then it is possible that something could be done between the submission from themselves and that to the Government of Canada.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

Do you believe CBSA, as the purchasing organization responsible for assessing the contract securities programs finding, should have a role in that?

[Cameron MacDonald]

The CBSA would have gotten this from PSPC.

My understanding is that the CBSA does a secondary security check. They don't just take what PSPC gives them, so I don't think CBSA would have had any responsibilities in that regard.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

Given what you're hearing, and you heard Mr. Firth's testimony last week.... I assume that you heard that on Thursday.

[Cameron MacDonald]

Yes, sir.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

He's admitted to altering the résumés.

You're quoted as saying, “Let Kristian work his magic”, in an email.

Would you not send an email like that, knowing that he's altered résumés in a situation like this?

[Cameron MacDonald]

Mr. Chair, I don't believe I sent that in an email at all. I believe I read that for the first time in an article that was written poorly.

I know you might not be able to see this, Mr. Johns, but I took that article—I couldn't sleep—and I read out every single timeline that that man quoted, and represented it.

I just want to say to people that the CBSA did not—

I'll stay here all day, Mr. Johns, so you don't need to worry about your time. We can give everybody six more minutes.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

It doesn't work like that.

[Cameron MacDonald]

We sat here. It was postpandemic when we did any contracting at all.

When I supposedly said that was February 2019, before the pandemic. I was talking about their being introduced to me as being in partnership and navigating through the complexities.

I wasn't talking about anything nefarious. I wasn't talking about anything bad.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

I don't want to do that to you right now. I'm trying to fix this, and I'm really glad that you're getting a chance to tell your side of the story.

Ms. O'Gorman just wrote a letter to this committee. She's asked PSPC to temporarily suspend all CBSA contracts with GC Strategies, Coradix and Dalian. This is pretty serious.

Would you agree that the CBSA wouldn't be sending a letter like this if it wasn't serious, if there weren't concerns—real concerns—that are being brought forward here?

I'm not talking about your involvement, but there must be some substantial concerns for Ms. O'Gorman to write this letter. Do you not agree?

[Cameron MacDonald]

Mr. Chair, I guess the only question I would ask is this: What has CBSA learned in the last two weeks that it didn't already know?

The CBSA had the email from September 27, which had no allegations. There wasn't a report of wrongdoing whatsoever. They sat here at this committee and didn't defend Mr. Utano or me. I think the CBSA should speak for themselves.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

Okay. I can give Mr. Utano a chance—

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

I'm sorry, but that is our time, Mr. Johns—perhaps you can do so on your next round.

Mr. Brock, you have five minutes, please.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

To both Mr. MacDonald and Mr. Utano, although you've not been sworn to tell the truth, when you attend committee, as part of the parliamentary privilege there's a component that you are required to tell the truth. You are required to give us fulsome answers. I just wanted to put that on the record, because I know you have legal counsel present.

Both of you have independent legal counsel. Is that correct?

[Antonio Utano]

We have the same legal counsel.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

Is it from the DOJ, or is it private counsel?

[Cameron MacDonald]

We weren't provided with any support whatsoever from the federal government when this happened, so we had to get our own support.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

That was probably a very wise move on your part, because the Auditor General is expanding her review. It started off as ArriveCAN, but because of the story from The Globe and Mail in early October and her concerns about the same players and the same government agencies, she has expanded that review.

More importantly, the RCMP are investigating not ArriveCAN, but the CBSA—all the employees, all of the executives, including both you, Mr. MacDonald, and you, Mr. Utano—as well as other government agencies and the three companies at issue right now—GC Strategies, Dalian and Coradix—as to what truly transpired, as to whether or not there was some criminality, all right? I can understand why you'd want to have counsel.

Putting that aside, both of you, in your opening statements, were very quick to impugn the credibility of the whistle-blowers—I call them the whistle-blowers, the brave two entrepreneurs from Botler AI—and you were prepared to actually throw the press under the bus, particularly The Globe and Mail.

I just want you to be aware, sir, because you used the phrases a lot—that these are allegations and you're here to tell the truth—so I'm going to give you the facts.

What you need to be aware of, sir, is that The Globe and Mail, which started this investigation, analyzed thousands and thousands of pages of documents, released pursuant to access to information requests, that came from the CBSA. The Globe also reviewed extensive documentation compiled by the entrepreneurs themselves, including contracting records and audio recordings of their conversations with IT consultants and both you, Mr. MacDonald, and you, Mr. Utano. We have hours and hours of conversations that are actually recorded, so in my view these aren't allegations. This is fact. This is evidence.

[Cameron MacDonald]

Mr. Chair—

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

I haven't asked you a question yet, sir, okay? This is my time, and this is how I'm ultimately going to frame the question to you. I wanted you to be aware of that, sir. Okay?

When we go back to taking a look at why Botler would have the need to record you, it's very, very clear early on, when you take a look at all of the stories, that they thought it extremely unusual that it was the CBSA—you in particular, sir—who sought them out, and sought them out not directly by yourself or by one of your employees, but rather by a middle person, Kristian Firth, from GC Strategies, because their work previous to this particular engagement was directly with the Department of Justice. They had civil servants.... They reached out directly to Botler. They did the work. They got paid. There was no middleman, no “ghost contractor”, as we like to refer to GC Strategies. I want to bring that to your attention, sir.

Now, you also claim that it wasn't you who initiated the concept of CBSA engaging with Botler. You say it was actually Firth's idea. You know that Firth testified last week. Firth is on record as saying that it wasn't his idea but your idea—that you had researched it, and you wanted him to approach Botler.

Both sets of facts can't be true at the same time. You're saying something completely opposite, so who's lying to committee, Mr. Firth or you?

[Cameron MacDonald]

Mr. Chair, I don't believe Mr. Firth said that, and I think you can check his transcripts. I think Mr. Firth said that he reached out to Botler after speaking to a number of CIOs around town. He had talked to me, and he had understood that Bill C-65 was important. At the time, there were news clips that CBSA had undergone a whole bunch of sexual harassment claims, and that's why I told him that it was one of my priorities.

I want to bring to your attention, since everybody is talking about facts—

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

Thank you. I don't want to hear about anything else, sir. You answered my question—

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

I'm sorry. I'm going to interrupt both of you, because I'm afraid that is your time, Mr. Brock.

We'll go to Mr. Bains, please, for five minutes.

[Parm Bains, Liberal, Steveston—Richmond East, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Mr. MacDonald and Mr. Utano, for joining us today.

You said that you preferred Deloitte. I just want to find out Mr. Doan's role in all of this process.

We asked him a question. He said that he has a team that makes a decision. I asked how many people were part of this team, and he said there were “1,400”. I asked if 1,400 people were “making this decision” and then he said that there were six directors. Then I think we asked for some names of who those people are.

You preferred Deloitte. What was the process used to select GC Strategies, and what was Mr. Doan's role in all of that—