Evidence of meeting #84 for Government Operations and Estimates in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was cbsa.
A video is available from Parliament.
5:30 p.m.
Conservative
Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB
If they were asking if it was secure, presumably they were asking that in the context of a particular application or company.
5:30 p.m.
Former Director General, Business Application Services Directorate, Canada Border Services Agency
No. It was because we were taking away paper and we were going to be using digital means.
5:30 p.m.
Conservative
Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB
I wonder if you could follow up on that point regarding the timeline.
By “penalty box”, do you mean they weren't to receive any contracts?
5:30 p.m.
Former Director General, Business Application Services Directorate, Canada Border Services Agency
That was my understanding. Again, Mr. Doan can explain.
5:30 p.m.
Conservative
Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB
It is sort of surprising to me that you would have this kind of informal process of companies being in the penalty box and therefore not getting any contracts, which means other companies get them automatically.
Is this normal, where someone just sort of decides that this company or that company is not going to receive any contracts for a while and you're going to give them to whoever else bids?
5:30 p.m.
Former Director General, Business Application Services Directorate, Canada Border Services Agency
I would say no. I wouldn't think it was normal at all, but I will preface that by saying that this was like the second week of the pandemic, and there was craziness everywhere.
The reason that the sole-source and the national security exemptions exist is for emergencies. This was declared a national emergency.
In terms of the decisions around why we could or could not use a particular company such as Deloitte, that was not my decision to make.
5:30 p.m.
Conservative
Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB
In the time I have left, I want to probe the point you referred to just at the end when you said Mr. Doan got a “non-advertised” appointment. There was sort of an implication in what you said.
I would like you to provide a bit more on that. Are there certain relationships or access points that he has? Do you think his appointment broke protocol in some way?
What were you getting at with that comment?
5:35 p.m.
Former Director General, Business Application Services Directorate, Canada Border Services Agency
Mr. Chair, the only thing I can say is that it was alluded to or inferred at this committee that I had benefited because of ArriveCAN and that I had gotten a promotion because of my work. I wanted to make sure this committee was aware that I fully competed in a competitive process that was open and fair. As a result, I was in a pool, and I was selected afterwards.
Mr. Utano, as well, fully competed in a process. The others can speak for themselves as to how they were selected. My base assumption is that when I left the CBSA, Mr. Doan was an EX-4. He was promoted to an EX-5, and others were promoted in the agency.
5:35 p.m.
Conservative
Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB
Finally, to put a sharp point on the process of selecting GC Strategies, Minh Doan chose them, and part of why he made that choice is that Mr. Ossowski, who was the president at the time, had told him that Deloitte was a no. Is that...?
5:35 p.m.
Former Director General, Business Application Services Directorate, Canada Border Services Agency
I will let Minh Doan answer for why he discounted Deloitte. I told you already what I heard from Mr. Doan. I had brought my boss two options. I came out with one and the decision to go.
I went. He was aware that I went forward with it, obviously, because we built ArriveCAN and we delivered it.
I left about 13 months after ArriveCAN was kicked off. Mr. Utano continued it. Mr. Doan was the CIO for the entire time.
When this committee started asking questions, Mr. Doan was still the CIO.
November 7th, 2023 / 5:35 p.m.
Liberal
Charles Sousa Liberal Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
There are a couple of things happening here today. There's Botler, and then there's ArriveCAN. Was Mr. Doan involved with the Botler deal at all?
5:35 p.m.
Former Director General, Business Application Services Directorate, Canada Border Services Agency
Mr. Doan directed me to work with GC Strategies and Botler, who were working in partnership, and get them ready for an executive presentation.
Mr. Doan did not get involved in any of the contracting or subcontracting or any of that. He was aware, and he had a meeting with Kristian Firth and Botler when I was not present, on December 6. It's part of your package. He also followed up with them himself, by email, when I wasn't on the email, and I have that email, which I can share with this committee.
5:35 p.m.
Liberal
Charles Sousa Liberal Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON
We appreciate it.
GC Strategies and Botler had no contract with CBSA. It was all done through Coradix and Dalian. Is that right?
5:35 p.m.
Former Director General, Business Application Services Directorate, Canada Border Services Agency
Yes, sir.
5:35 p.m.
Liberal
Charles Sousa Liberal Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON
The RCMP is not reviewing the ArriveCAN application or process. They are reviewing the allegations being made by Botler. Is that correct?
5:35 p.m.
Former Director General, Business Application Services Directorate, Canada Border Services Agency
To my knowledge, and I believe to Mr.—
5:35 p.m.
Liberal
Charles Sousa Liberal Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON
Have you been approached by the RCMP?
I know, Mr. Utano, you worked with the RCMP for some time. Have either of you been approached by the RCMP in this review?
5:35 p.m.
Former Executive Director, Border Technologies Innovation Directorate, Canada Border Services Agency
I have not.
5:35 p.m.
Former Director General, Business Application Services Directorate, Canada Border Services Agency
5:35 p.m.
Liberal
Charles Sousa Liberal Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON
No one has approached you or asked you any questions relative to the appointment of Botler or Botler's allegations. Okay.
You mentioned that the CTO does not approve the contract; the CFO is actually the one who cuts the cheque or approves it. Would they approve it without your input around the contract meeting these requirements? Would they have to rely on you to provide that information as well?
5:35 p.m.
Former Director General, Business Application Services Directorate, Canada Border Services Agency
Maybe Mr. Utano is best placed to answer, but I'll just start off by saying that we would fill in the paperwork for the justification that talks about the technical requirements, why a sole-source justification is required, urgency in terms of time and whatnot. There's usually a back-and-forth with that, because they vet this stuff really thoroughly. They make sure that everything is done to the T.
5:35 p.m.
Liberal
Charles Sousa Liberal Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON
There's a threshold as well, by which it meets approvals. Is that correct?
5:35 p.m.
Former Director General, Business Application Services Directorate, Canada Border Services Agency
The CFO organization at CBSA is called a comptrollership. They have their own governance for all of contracting, which is separate from the IT branch.
5:35 p.m.
Liberal
Charles Sousa Liberal Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON
How did that affect the decision with regard to the Botler proposal?
