Evidence of meeting #85 for Government Operations and Estimates in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was contract.
A video is available from Parliament.
Conservative
Larry Brock Conservative Brantford—Brant, ON
Okay. There's nothing internal.
Do you have a particular lawyer whom you deal with at the DOJ?
Supply Specialist, Professional Services Procurement Directorate, Department of Public Works and Government Services
Not that I am aware of.
Conservative
Larry Brock Conservative Brantford—Brant, ON
There is a reason I asked you that. I want to go through a thread of emails between you and Ritika Dutt.
She brought to your attention on May 10, 2023, a number of concerns: that Coradix and Dalian were using their names as resources without their knowledge and consent; that they received payments from the government under the TA; that during the bidding process, they falsely claimed that they had been in contact with Botler and sought their input; that an ATIP from CBSA confirmed that there was no affixation of status of personnel on file; that they, in fact, filed legal notice to the contractor to produce the document, and they failed to comply; and that they sought your help to compel the contractor to produce the document.
There are elements of criminality in that email. There is not only a potential breach of contract and regulations with respect to the TA, but we have elements of fraud and forgery.
Did you get the sense that there was a red flag in this? I'd like to know whether or not you passed this on to the DOJ for consultation. Answer yes or no.
Supply Specialist, Professional Services Procurement Directorate, Department of Public Works and Government Services
We passed along what we found, and we were in constant consultation throughout the course of this investigation.
Conservative
Supply Specialist, Professional Services Procurement Directorate, Department of Public Works and Government Services
Yes.
Conservative
Supply Specialist, Professional Services Procurement Directorate, Department of Public Works and Government Services
Yes.
Conservative
Larry Brock Conservative Brantford—Brant, ON
Okay.
Did the legal opinion—without getting into specifics—allow you to continue pursuing the documentation they requested, yes or no?
Supply Specialist, Professional Services Procurement Directorate, Department of Public Works and Government Services
Our first and foremost priority was to protect Canada and to investigate whether or not the alleged fraud from the prime contractor had occurred.
Conservative
Larry Brock Conservative Brantford—Brant, ON
Okay.
You sent an email to Julie Prud'Homme on May 26 requesting information on the contract with regard to the allegations. On May 26, you received a further email from Botler saying that they were never contracted by Coradix to provide any feedback on the TA, that they did not provide recommendations on any resources, and that the mandatory requirements tabled for herself, which were submitted with the TA, significantly inflated her work experience and were not reflective of her actual work experience. She did not agree or consent to be named on the TA or for the work to be implemented.
Again there's a spectre of criminality. Now we have the spectre of a forged résumé. That's another red flag.
Did you send that particular email to the DOJ for consultation?
Supply Specialist, Professional Services Procurement Directorate, Department of Public Works and Government Services
Yes, I did.
Conservative
Larry Brock Conservative Brantford—Brant, ON
Okay.
We already know what the evidence is. Kristian Firth has testified, and his illogical fantasy of simply making a mistake could have been believed if there had been just one modification to Ritika Dutt's résumé. However, if memory serves me correctly without my looking at the transcript, he attempted on at least five occasions, if not six, to deliberately manipulate the work experience so that when they input the data on the required forms, they would qualify for funding. That is not only forgery but also fraud.
My question to you is this: Why did you not shut this operation down immediately—among GC Strategies, Coradix and Dalian—against this spectre of criminality? It's obvious. Was it not obvious to you?
I'm not asking Mr. Mills. I'm asking Ms. Chan.
Supply Specialist, Professional Services Procurement Directorate, Department of Public Works and Government Services
Thank you for the question, Mr. Chair.
Again, our priority was to investigate the allegations made about Dalian or Coradix. When we asked Dalian to provide documentation that they received payment from CBSA, as we found out later, and that they were provided the resources from GC Strategies—
Conservative
Larry Brock Conservative Brantford—Brant, ON
I'm not talking about that.
You have a spectre now of fraudulent résumés. Did you go to GC Strategies or Coradix and say, “What is going on here? You are misleading the government. You are abusing taxpayer monies.” Did you do that, Ms. Chan?
Supply Specialist, Professional Services Procurement Directorate, Department of Public Works and Government Services
I analyzed data, and from what we observed, Dalian and Coradix obtained those documents from GC Strategies. We found there was nothing out of the ordinary with the contractors.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley
Thanks, Ms. Chan.
Mr. Sousa, go ahead for five minutes, please.
Liberal
Charles Sousa Liberal Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON
Ms. Durigan, Ms. Chan and Ms. Mansour, thank you for being here. I appreciate your being here. I understand this must be difficult at times.
I want to clarify something that was stated earlier.
It's my understanding that you agreed to come, but you also asked your colleagues to be here as well. Is that correct? Were they told...? Did they say they wanted to come, or did you ask them to be here? How did that come to be?
Go ahead, Ms. Durigan.
Manager, Professional Services Procurement Directorate, Department of Public Works and Government Services
The five of us just came as representatives of PSPC, with all of our different expertise, if you will, and levels, so—
Liberal
Charles Sousa Liberal Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON
Do you feel comfortable with the other two being here? We only asked for the three of you. I want to make certain it's something you are not uncomfortable with. It was my understanding that you asked for some backup in case we got more complex.
Manager, Professional Services Procurement Directorate, Department of Public Works and Government Services
No. We appreciate the support and have no issue with their being present with us.
November 9th, 2023 / 4:15 p.m.
Conservative
Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB
I have a point of order, Chair.
With great respect for these witnesses, they are being put in a very strange position by Mr. Sousa's question, because these are the people they work for on a daily basis. I think he could focus on the issue at hand.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley
Mr. Genuis, I'm going to say that it's Mr. Sousa's time and I'll let him ask his questions.