Government Operations Committee on Nov. 9th, 2023

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

The context is that bids were put in by GC Strategies and Deloitte for ArriveCAN. The decision was made to go with GC Strategies on the basis that, allegedly, Deloitte was “in the penalty box”, which means that contrary to the claims of Mr. Mills, this wasn't a competitive situation. Deloitte was allegedly excluded from consideration for reasons unknown, which meant GC Strategies was selected. I'm—

[Majid Jowhari, Liberal, Richmond Hill, ON]

I have a point of order, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Wait one moment, Mr. Genuis.

Yes, sir, go ahead, if it's a point of order, please—a real one.

[Majid Jowhari, Liberal, Richmond Hill, ON]

Well, I know it's not a real one. I think it is for a clarification.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Come on. He admits it's not a real point of order.

Just be quiet and let me do the question, Mr. Jowhari. It's pretty disgraceful.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Can we all please stick to real points of order?

Go ahead, Mr. Genuis.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Mr. Chair, can I get some clarity on the issue of the penalty box? As far as you know, nobody was in the penalty box. Signing contracts with Deloitte was fine and permitted during this time.

Can I talk to the people who do the frontline work?

[Angela Durigan]

I have no knowledge of Deloitte being in a penalty box.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Okay.

Mr. Mills, very quickly, do you have any knowledge of Deloitte being in a penalty box?

[Michael Mills]

Mr. Chair, I do not have any knowledge of Deloitte being in a penalty box.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Thank you very much.

Would you be able, Ms. Durigan, to provide us with detailed information—for the ArriveCAN contract specifically—on which companies got certain amounts of money? How much went to Coradix? How much went to Dalian? How much went to GC Strategies? How much went to other subcontractor entities?

Do you have all of that information?

[Angela Durigan]

I do not have that information.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Does anybody in the government have that information?

[Michael Mills]

Mr. Chair, we would have the information of contract values that were awarded, but how much was expended—and some of the task authorizations—would have to come from CBSA.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Okay.

We seem to have gotten the runaround, a bit. I hope there's agreement among the committee to request that information from both entities. How much money went to each entity? We can request the information from CBSA and PSPC, and whoever has it will give it to us. Is that agreeable?

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Could you be more specific for the clerk so that she can note it down?

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

I'd like a breakdown of the $54 million spent on ArriveCAN. How much went to each company? Who were the people receiving money as part of that contract?

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Wait one moment, please.

That's fine.

We need a deadline, please, Mr. Genuis. Is it the usual three weeks?

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Sure, that's fine.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

The clerk will follow up with the exact details.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Fundamentally, your PSPC department is responsible for assessing value for money in the context of procurement. I understand that to be part of your responsibilities.

I've been able to find a list of apps that were developed under the Harper Conservative government. These apps are complex in nature: the CRA Business Tax Reminders app, CBSA's eDeclaration app, the Canadian Armed Forces app, etc. All of these apps were developed, in most cases, for well under half a million dollars. In one case, it was closer to $3 million.

This particular app was developed at costs that were dramatically out of proportion with the costs of other apps developed under the previous government. Doesn't this suggest that your department failed to do its job in terms of achieving value for money?

Ms. Durigan, did you want to intervene on that?

[Angela Durigan]

We don't have any visibility on that with respect to value for money. I work on individual contracts, and we do our due diligence with respect to competitive processes and—

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

So who's looking at the value for—

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

I'm afraid that's our time.

We have Mr. Kusmierczyk, please, for five minutes.

[Irek Kusmierczyk, Liberal, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'll start off by saying thank you so very much, Ms. Durigan, Ms. Chan and Ms. Mansour, for the many years of service that you've provided to this government, to procurement and to IT. Thank you for taking the time to share some of your expertise here.

I have a question to Mr. Mills.

If PSPC came across evidence of CV embellishment of the kind we heard about, allegedly in order for companies to help them win bids, what are some of the steps and repercussions that PSPC would take?