Government Operations Committee on Nov. 14th, 2023

[Charles Sousa, Liberal, Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON]

We're trying to assess value for money. In this committee, we're also trying to assess any kind of nefarious activity that may have occurred as a result of the selection of GC Strategies, because there are alleged claims by Botler that they are this ghost contractor. I'm just trying to understand the process.

My understanding is that GC Strategies was a partner with Botler, and they had no contract, but they were trying to promote Botler's opportunities in another venture. Then ArriveCAN comes to be. GC Strategies already has a long history of activity with government over many different administrations. They were selected through this hybrid situation that you put forward as an alternative to using Deloitte. GC Strategies was selected, and we're trying to understand how that took place.

You've made it clear that the buck stops with you. You take full responsibility for the administration of the ArriveCAN app. You're saying that it took on a life of its own, to some extent, because of the activities throughout the pandemic.

Who actually signed the contract with GC Strategies?

[Minh Doan]

There are four contracts with GC Strategies. As I said, the first three were sole source and the last one was competitive. To my understanding, CBSA has already provided those contracts. Actually, those contracts are public knowledge. You can find those contracts, as well as who signed them.

[Charles Sousa, Liberal, Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON]

Did you sign it, Mr. Doan?

[Minh Doan]

No, I did not.

[Charles Sousa, Liberal, Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON]

Do you feel there was value for money in those contracts?

[Minh Doan]

Yes, I do. We delivered ArriveCAN in all its complexity.

Without ArriveCAN and still using paper.... Different quotes were named. Mr. MacDonald said three dollars. I'll buy that number. Take 30 million successful submissions at ArriveCAN and multiply it. I think the math explains itself, in terms of $54 million versus paper. That's a one-to-one calculation.

There are other impacts of using paper. Paper takes time, around seven days, to digitize. Once a traveller comes in and submits a piece of paper, it would take up to seven days for that electronic information—which is usually error-prone, because it's handwritten—to get the facts and do the necessary public health measures, to do follow-ups or contact tracing, or to make sure that people are staying home if they need to.

There's the direct cost of replacing paper and all of the benefits of having real-time, immediate electronic information.

In addition—

[Charles Sousa, Liberal, Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON]

Mr. Firth has been alleged to have close relationships with senior members of the bureaucracy in the civil service. Referencing conversations with others, with Botler in particular, have you had a relationship with Mr. Firth prior to this situation?

[Minh Doan]

I did not have a relationship with Mr. Firth either prior to it or after it.

[Charles Sousa, Liberal, Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON]

Do you know of anybody in government who has been having an ongoing relationship with Mr. Firth?

[Minh Doan]

No, I do not.

[Charles Sousa, Liberal, Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON]

When the opportunity presented itself, how was GC Strategies brought forward? Did we seek out suppliers? How does this work?

[Minh Doan]

As I've said a few times, the decision to go in the technical direction that led to GC Strategies was mine. I'm accountable for it. I still do not know who picked up the phone and asked them to solicit a bid in the first place. I believe the CBSA is investigating this matter.

[Charles Sousa, Liberal, Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON]

Thank you.

Do you have anything more you want to add before we wrap up?

[Minh Doan]

Thank you for the opportunity. I think people need to understand that I'm not making this up in terms of what we were living at the time.

On March 11, the World Health Organization called a global pandemic. Five days later, the government sent most of its employees home. At the same time, we closed our borders internationally. Four days later, we closed, unprecedentedly, the border with the United States.

This is the reality that as CIO I was accountable for. I had to enable both the changes at the border and the changes for employees.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Thanks, Mr. Doan.

Mr. Garon is next, for three and a half minutes, please.

[Jean-Denis Garon, Bloc, Mirabel, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Doan, allow me to recap.

If I understand correctly, you had to make a technical decision. You could either opt entirely for subcontractors or choose a hybrid approach?

Is that correct?

[Minh Doan]

Yes, that's right.

[Jean-Denis Garon, Bloc, Mirabel, QC]

When you received the report, there was a proposal from Deloitte to subcontract the entire project, and there was a second option.

Is that correct?

[Minh Doan]

Yes, that's right.

[Jean-Denis Garon, Bloc, Mirabel, QC]

In addition to the confidentiality and cloud computing issues, you said among other things that Deloitte was a big multinational and that the size of such companies could be problematic. It can mean that the product is not delivered quickly.

Is that correct?

[Minh Doan]

Those multinationals have the necessary experience and expertise to take on huge projects. Typically, a company such as Deloitte would not be chosen to develop an $80,000 application.

[Jean-Denis Garon, Bloc, Mirabel, QC]

Okay, I understand.

So you are saying you knew that Deloitte was an option for the first solution and that you did not know the other company. Given that the size and type of company were factors to be considered, didn't you want to ask some questions since you had to make a decision about the type or size of company that would be the right fit? If that was important at that time, even if it wasn't in the report, why didn't you ask any questions?

Why was the type of company important for the first option but not for the second? You chose the second option and then, suddenly, that didn't seem to be important any more.

[Minh Doan]

Thank you for the question.

The way you worded the question suggests that there were two companies. There wasn't a second company.

[Jean-Denis Garon, Bloc, Mirabel, QC]

No, there were two options and you were only familiar with the company associated with the first option.

Why didn't you inquire about the size and type of company for the second option since you were not familiar with it?

My question is very specific, and I am waiting for an answer.

[Minh Doan]

Thank you for the question.

There was no company associated with the second option. I am not sure company size is a factor that we consider.

They made pre-qualified lists. They had to follow very specific rules with PSPC. In our decision-making around this, I am not in the habit of asking, of the hundreds of companies and vendors, how big each individual company is. I asked for a specific technical direction, and in that technical direction, at the time, there was no association to any specific company.