Evidence of meeting #86 for Government Operations and Estimates in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was macdonald.
A video is available from Parliament.
Bloc
Jean-Denis Garon Bloc Mirabel, QC
Is it possible to have the names of those people sent to the committee?
Chief Technology Officer of the Government of Canada, Treasury Board Secretariat
Yes, it's possible. The information can be found in the briefing book that I'll give you.
Bloc
Jean-Denis Garon Bloc Mirabel, QC
Okay.
That leads me to another interesting question. Within the Canada Border Services Agency, there seems to be an army of people who are experts in technology, who are qualified to do this type of work.
Do you think it's normal for us to have to deal with an outside firm to select people who can carry out this contract, when there seems to be an army of specialists within the agency? Don't you find that strange?
If you were in our shoes, would that seem like an intelligent, effective and transparent way of doing things?
What's your opinion on that?
November 14th, 2023 / 12:25 p.m.
Chief Technology Officer of the Government of Canada, Treasury Board Secretariat
I've been an IT professional for 25 years. I have a bachelor's degree in computer science. I've been doing this a very long time.
The idea for an application started on March 22. We launched the first version of ArriveCAN on April 29. That is incredibly fast by private sector standards. It was secure. It was on multiple platforms. It was successful, and it kept iterating. Even using any public servant, nobody can do it that quickly. This required skills that we did not have at the time.
Bloc
Jean-Denis Garon Bloc Mirabel, QC
I'm talking about the selection process; I'm not talking about the programming or the delivery of the application.
Is it normal for an agency with hundreds of specialists to have to deal with an outside agency that clearly lined its pockets and wasn’t qualified to make the decision as to which firm should deliver the product?
I'm not talking about those who program the product. I'm talking about the practice of doing business with an intermediary. Is that normal?
Chief Technology Officer of the Government of Canada, Treasury Board Secretariat
Yes, that's quite normal.
As part of the awarding of contracts, if we were to search for all the different types of candidates we need, whether it be cybersecurity, cloud technology or developing an app, it would be impossible to do that quickly. We did it in six weeks. We need an intermediary who already has the necessary relationships, who will do the security screening, who will review resumés, and so on.
If we had had to do it ourselves, it would have taken six to eight months, if it was feasible. We need someone to tell us what resources are needed.
Bloc
Jean-Denis Garon Bloc Mirabel, QC
If you had had to make that decision, would you have given the mandate to GC Strategies?
Chief Technology Officer of the Government of Canada, Treasury Board Secretariat
We needed technology advice. Ultimately, we brought in GC Strategies. I'm responsible for that decision, and I have no regrets.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley
Thank you, gentlemen. That is our time.
Mr. Johns, you have six minutes, please.
NDP
Gord Johns NDP Courtenay—Alberni, BC
Mr. Doan, I want to offer you an opportunity to clear your name. A government official has come to this committee and directly accused you of lying and threatening them. Other witnesses have indirectly accused you of lying or omission. Your name, as you even stated yourself, is all over the press. I'm sure that your many years of work in the public service are important. I want to offer you one more chance to tell the whole truth to this committee. I will offer you a chance to address the allegations made against you.
However, first, can you please address any statements you've made to this committee that you've reflected on, if you've realized you misrepresented something or left something out, however small, however unintentional? I want to offer you a chance to address the allegations made against you.
Chief Technology Officer of the Government of Canada, Treasury Board Secretariat
As I understand it, there are three allegations.
The first one is that I misled the committee. I did not. When I answered about the emails.... When I looked through the package that was received, I searched everything. I found nothing. For me, lying is knowing the truth and deliberately saying something else.
The other allegation is that I picked GC Strategies. As you've heard many, many times already, I picked a technical direction. Nowhere in all of the material that I've found, or in my recollection, was it implied that the direction would be GC Strategies. That is the other allegation.
In terms of harassing and threatening—as I said in my opening statement, and I welcome the opportunity to say it again—I was in no position to threaten Mr. MacDonald.
NDP
Gord Johns NDP Courtenay—Alberni, BC
You're saying that Mr. MacDonald was lying to this committee when he said that you selected GC Strategies.
Chief Technology Officer of the Government of Canada, Treasury Board Secretariat
Mr. MacDonald's interpretation I can't speak to. I did decide on a certain direction, and we ended up with them. Depending on how you see this, that could be seen as my implicitly deciding on a company. I was explaining this to a neighbour of mine, and in the simplest terms it's as though I ask you, “Would you like to go to Europe or South America?” You respond, “Europe,” and I say, “Well, you decided Paris.” If that's a view of the reality, my decision at the time.... I did not know that GC Strategies was involved in that strategic direction.
NDP
Gord Johns NDP Courtenay—Alberni, BC
Well, Mr. MacDonald says he had never heard of Botler until November 19, 2019, when he was approached with an unsolicited proposal. However, we know from recorded conversations that Mr. Firth had been communicating with Botler long before that, telling them it was MacDonald who had discovered Botler and wanted their software to solve CBSA's Bill C-65 needs.
When were you aware that Mr. Firth was communicating with Botler on MacDonald's behalf? Were you aware at the time or after the fact?
Chief Technology Officer of the Government of Canada, Treasury Board Secretariat
I learned these things only recently, in the news and the allegations.
I have material here from Mr. MacDonald that says at least twice, “I found Botler.”
NDP
Gord Johns NDP Courtenay—Alberni, BC
Okay.
Did the CBSA president task you, MacDonald or anyone else with filling the CBSA's need in response to Bill C-65? What was the president's initiative on this?
Chief Technology Officer of the Government of Canada, Treasury Board Secretariat
We were being briefed at the executive committee about the problems around sexual harassment. The president would have been there, as well as the deputy and the associate deputy. At the meeting, or perhaps thereafter—my memory is not clear—the president looked at me, as chief information officer, and asked, “Is there a different way of using technology to solve this problem?” I said, “I will look into it.”
NDP
Gord Johns NDP Courtenay—Alberni, BC
Mr. Doan, the CBSA has now suspended all contracts with GC Strategies, Dalian and Coradix. My understanding is that they're still allowed to do business with other departments within government.
Now you're the CTO. Do you not see a problem with this? The CBSA is not doing business with them right now and has suspended all activities, and the RCMP is investigating, yet they can still get contracts within government. It sounds absurd to me.
Chief Technology Officer of the Government of Canada, Treasury Board Secretariat
Thank you for the question.
The decision by the Canada Border Services Agency and Public Services and Procurement Canada to suspend contracts follows allegations that have been made. I'm not aware of the details.
I've not been briefed. I do not know what led to that decision, or I was not informed—
NDP
Gord Johns NDP Courtenay—Alberni, BC
Wouldn't this concern you, as the CTO? You should be looking at this and making the decision as to whether to recommend that the government should suspend them from all government departments until this is thoroughly looked at and the police have done their investigation.
Chief Technology Officer of the Government of Canada, Treasury Board Secretariat
As chief technology officer at Treasury Board, I set technical direction for the government in terms of major IT. These are things like cloud use, cybersecurity, desktop and others.
My role within the office of the chief information officer is not around procurement. Different deputy heads are delegated to make procurement decisions. From where I sit, I give direction on technology and ensure that the major projects of different departments are aligned with the enterprise standards.
NDP
Gord Johns NDP Courtenay—Alberni, BC
In your understanding, there is nothing you can do now, given that you know the CBSA has suspended activities with these companies. There's nothing you can do in your role as CTO.
Chief Technology Officer of the Government of Canada, Treasury Board Secretariat
I would offer that it is something that PSPC would have a more informed opinion on.
Chief Technology Officer of the Government of Canada, Treasury Board Secretariat
Actually, no. They do not.