Evidence of meeting #86 for Government Operations and Estimates in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was macdonald.
A video is available from Parliament.
1:15 p.m.
Bloc
Jean-Denis Garon Bloc Mirabel, QC
So you're telling us that in a crisis situation, when you were the chief information officer, you weren't consulted about the firms under consideration.
In a crisis situation, when you were at the top of the hierarchy, no one saw fit to consult you so that you could have a say in technology.
Is that correct?
1:15 p.m.
Chief Technology Officer of the Government of Canada, Treasury Board Secretariat
Given all my responsibilities at the time, including the closure of customs, I delegated decision-making to executives, which my position allows me to do. I trusted Mr. MacDonald. As I already told you, he made a decision for the first version of the application, which cost $80,000.
I also had to manage my entire team, which has 1,200 to 1,400 employees. I had to manage the closure—
1:15 p.m.
Bloc
Jean-Denis Garon Bloc Mirabel, QC
You are saying that you relied on Mr. MacDonald. That is what you just said.
Is that right?
1:15 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley
I'm afraid that is your time, Mr. Garon.
Mr. Johns, go ahead for two and a half minutes, please.
1:15 p.m.
NDP
Gord Johns NDP Courtenay—Alberni, BC
Did GC Strategies and all of its resources working on CBSA projects have proper security clearances? Had they all received and signed completed security briefings and screening forms?
1:15 p.m.
Chief Technology Officer of the Government of Canada, Treasury Board Secretariat
To the best of my knowledge, contract authority procurement teams within CBSA would have verified all those things before work could be started.
1:15 p.m.
NDP
Gord Johns NDP Courtenay—Alberni, BC
These ghost contractors and unnamed resources pose, as you know, a significant risk to our national security and to the data and privacy of all Canadians. Ritika Dutt and Amir Morv never signed an NDA or any other confidentiality agreement with CBSA, nor did any of the pass-through contractors that were enlisted under them.
Is this normal practice? Is it permitted by government procurement policies to not require contractors or consultants to sign NDAs?
1:15 p.m.
Chief Technology Officer of the Government of Canada, Treasury Board Secretariat
I believe there are two parts to that question, in terms of NDAs and subcontracting.
The first part is the term “ghost contracting”. I must admit that, in my 25 years of experience, it's not a term with which I am familiar. It's not a term I have heard. If what you are referring to is subcontracting, that practice, I believe, has been explained many times.
The Government of Canada deals with the contractor in question. The main contractor then has, following PSPC guidelines and rules, the ability to subcontract whoever they need to in order to get the work done. Those subcontractors and those engagements.... The Crown or government—in this case, CBSA—is not privy to that. The only one who would know that and could probably speak to your question is PSPC.
1:15 p.m.
NDP
Gord Johns NDP Courtenay—Alberni, BC
Okay. Basically the subcontractors don't need to sign NDAs. That is what you're saying, and they can have access to the private information and data and privacy of Canadians without signing an NDA or any other confidentiality agreement. That's basically what you're saying, is it not?
1:15 p.m.
Chief Technology Officer of the Government of Canada, Treasury Board Secretariat
Thank you for the question.
No, that is not what I said.
All the groups or subcontractors working on a project have to follow the same rules, including those relating to security.
When a candidate is submitted to us, regardless of the subcontracting level, the rules have to be followed—
1:15 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley
That is our time. Thanks very much.
We have Mr. Genuis for five minutes, please.
1:15 p.m.
Conservative
Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB
Mr. Doan, in general, when did you first become aware of the existence of GC Strategies?
1:15 p.m.
Chief Technology Officer of the Government of Canada, Treasury Board Secretariat
I didn't become aware of the existence of GC Strategies until well into the pandemic.
1:15 p.m.
Chief Technology Officer of the Government of Canada, Treasury Board Secretariat
I would have to go back into my records to confirm.
1:15 p.m.
Conservative
Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB
Okay, but you're saying it was well after the awarding of this contract.
1:20 p.m.
Chief Technology Officer of the Government of Canada, Treasury Board Secretariat
Yes, I am.
1:20 p.m.
Conservative
Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB
You're telling us that at the time this contract was awarded, you had never heard of GC Strategies, never heard of Kristian Firth. You had never met and had no awareness of them whatsoever.
1:20 p.m.
Chief Technology Officer of the Government of Canada, Treasury Board Secretariat
There are over 30 companies that worked with—
1:20 p.m.
Conservative
1:20 p.m.
Chief Technology Officer of the Government of Canada, Treasury Board Secretariat
That is not what I'm telling you.
1:20 p.m.
Conservative
Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB
Can you give me a direct answer, sir? When did you become aware of GC Strategies? You said it was after the awarding of this contract. You said that earlier.
1:20 p.m.
Chief Technology Officer of the Government of Canada, Treasury Board Secretariat
I interpreted the question as when I was aware that GC Strategies was on ArriveCAN. That was well after the pandemic.
1:20 p.m.
Conservative
Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB
No. When were you first aware of GC Strategies in general?
1:20 p.m.
Chief Technology Officer of the Government of Canada, Treasury Board Secretariat
When I look through my records, I see there was a meeting in 2018 where I was a member of a board of IT professionals, and they came and presented to that board about a generic set of services and offers that were there.
It was a large group setting. I do not have the materials still. I could never define it.