Evidence of meeting #86 for Government Operations and Estimates in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was macdonald.
A video is available from Parliament.
1:05 p.m.
Chief Technology Officer of the Government of Canada, Treasury Board Secretariat
I thank the hon. member for his question.
No, I don't recall that at all.
We had general meetings, committees, and town halls where our deputy ministers and other deputy ministers congratulated us on our work. They knew how much work and stress it was, all the overtime we were putting in. The outcome had to be secure. We were proud of the work done, and so were our superiors throughout the pandemic.
1:10 p.m.
Liberal
Majid Jowhari Liberal Richmond Hill, ON
Thank you.
Mr. MacDonald also claimed he understood that you had said that the minister, that somebody, was not happy up there and wanted somebody's head. Do you recall any conversation you had with Mr. MacDonald around an individual, a superior—whether it was the president of CBSA or anybody else—who was not happy and wanted somebody's head?
1:10 p.m.
Chief Technology Officer of the Government of Canada, Treasury Board Secretariat
I was not briefing the minister or the minister's office about this at this time or in the fall of last year.
Nobody was looking for a proverbial head. The question that was raised last year was, why did it cost $54 million and was it value for money? One of the sub-questions that was making the media was, why, among the 30 or more companies that we worked with to develop ArriveCAN, would one of those companies be relatively small? There were no allegations of wrongdoing. Nobody was looking for a head.
1:10 p.m.
Liberal
Majid Jowhari Liberal Richmond Hill, ON
Thank you.
Who raised that question? Who specifically raised that concern or question?
1:10 p.m.
Chief Technology Officer of the Government of Canada, Treasury Board Secretariat
Nobody raised that question. Nobody raised that concern.
1:10 p.m.
Liberal
Majid Jowhari Liberal Richmond Hill, ON
Neither a minister nor your superior raised the question that there was media, news, and they wanted to get to the bottom of it.
1:10 p.m.
Chief Technology Officer of the Government of Canada, Treasury Board Secretariat
I was not briefed on the concerns of the minister's office. I was and still continue to be very proud of the ArriveCAN work. GC Strategies was one among 30-something companies we worked with to deliver this, and it was tireless over two and a half years.
1:10 p.m.
Liberal
1:10 p.m.
Chief Technology Officer of the Government of Canada, Treasury Board Secretariat
There were questions to make sure that we could justify and explain, because it was proper—
1:10 p.m.
Chief Technology Officer of the Government of Canada, Treasury Board Secretariat
The entire agency—everybody. We defended those numbers.
1:10 p.m.
Liberal
Majid Jowhari Liberal Richmond Hill, ON
Did at any time a minister or a representative of a minister reach out to you or to your department directly or indirectly to inquire about the cost of the application?
1:10 p.m.
Chief Technology Officer of the Government of Canada, Treasury Board Secretariat
Not to me, no.
1:10 p.m.
Liberal
Majid Jowhari Liberal Richmond Hill, ON
Okay. You also do not recall having any conversation about wanting somebody's head, that somebody up there wants somebody's head.
1:10 p.m.
Chief Technology Officer of the Government of Canada, Treasury Board Secretariat
As I said, last year there were no allegations of wrongdoing. It was just, “Can we explain the $54 million?”, which I believe CBSA did, and I still stand behind it.
1:10 p.m.
Liberal
Majid Jowhari Liberal Richmond Hill, ON
With 30 seconds to go, if there were any allegations of misconduct, lying and intimidation, who would you directly raise that to? Who would be your superior?
1:10 p.m.
Chief Technology Officer of the Government of Canada, Treasury Board Secretariat
For any issue at that time, during that period, it would have been Mr. John Ossowski.
1:10 p.m.
Liberal
Majid Jowhari Liberal Richmond Hill, ON
What role does the Clerk of the Privy Council play as it relates to raising these concerns of allegations?
1:10 p.m.
Chief Technology Officer of the Government of Canada, Treasury Board Secretariat
At my level, I don't directly interact with the clerk. Any interactions would be higher than me.
In terms of serious allegations, I would raise what I think needs attention, then trust that the deputy ministers would raise it to the appropriate authorities after that.
1:10 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley
Thank you.
Mr. Garon, go ahead for two and a half minutes, please.
1:10 p.m.
Bloc
Jean-Denis Garon Bloc Mirabel, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Mr. Doan, I'll tell you why I'm not inclined to believe you. On the one hand, you're telling us that the situation was urgent and that you had to carry out processes that normally take time. In that case, you had to complete them within 24 or 48 hours. Everything was urgent. Usually, the processes can take weeks or months, but in this case, everything was done in one or two days.
On the other hand, there were technical specifications that had to be met. You got a report, and then you decided on the technological direction. The work was then contracted out.
It seems to me that, in a time of crisis, when things happen extremely quickly, the state of emergency would be reason enough for the senior official to give his opinion and to be consulted on the awarding of a subcontract to any company.
You said that you followed the usual processes. However, don't you find it odd to tell us that all this work was done in 48 hours, because the situation was exceptional? That implies that it was not done as usual.
What version should we believe, as parliamentarians, between the two versions of the story you've told us today?
1:10 p.m.
Chief Technology Officer of the Government of Canada, Treasury Board Secretariat
I thank the hon. member for the question.
People were dying in this country. People had to go to the hospital.
1:15 p.m.
Bloc
Jean-Denis Garon Bloc Mirabel, QC
I'm not asking you who did or didn't go to the hospital.
First, you told us that it was done on the fly, in two days, and that extraordinary measures had to be taken. When we asked you whether you had been consulted, you told us that the processes had been followed.
Are you telling me that the processes can be followed without consultation?
I asked you a specific question, and you're not answering it.
1:15 p.m.
Chief Technology Officer of the Government of Canada, Treasury Board Secretariat
The procurement and contracting processes were followed. Public Services and Procurement Canada was consulted at all stages.
In terms of governance, in terms of decisions on technical needs that were made in 24 hours, 48 hours or 72 hours, the processes were not followed. There were gaps in documentation, but we were in a crisis and in the middle of a pandemic.