Evidence of meeting #88 for Government Operations and Estimates in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was contract.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Simon Page  Assistant Deputy Minister, Defence and Marine Procurement, Department of Public Works and Government Services
Arianne Reza  Deputy Minister, Department of Public Works and Government Services
Catherine Poulin  Assistant Deputy Minister, Departmental Oversight Branch , Department of Public Works and Government Services
Michael Mills  Assistant Deputy Minister, Procurement Branch, Department of Public Works and Government Services
Wojo Zielonka  Assistant Deputy Minister and Chief Financial Officer, Department of Public Works and Government Services
Scott Jones  President, Shared Services Canada

7:10 p.m.

Conservative

Rick Perkins Conservative South Shore—St. Margarets, NS

Yes, thank you. I won't take up much more time. It won't be 22 years until I finish.

I want to say that I appreciate the list provided here, in the motion. It is a comprehensive list that is necessary to get us to the next stage. I still worry about.... I'm looking forward to the debate about any proprietary information and elements like that, which could create further complications. However, at the same time, we need to move on right now with making sure the situation taking place here can be used to the benefit of other places that will get investment, afterwards.

The contracts are sold. They are on their own merit themselves...whether or not they will be of value and whether they'll be carried out.

I'll conclude with this: I'm hoping that, perhaps, again, there is some way to at least start with discussion. Delete number (i), number (ii) and number (iii). I will not entertain any other Liberal amendments that try to put any type of hyperbole back into this equation. That's what we did at the industry committee.

I will make a motion at one point, when it's appropriate, Mr. Chair, to delete number (i), number (ii) and number (iii) of the motion, in order to get right to the thrust of it. I will not entertain other substance put into that by anybody else, because I believe we want to talk about the real issue here: getting a fair balance about the contracts and getting them public. I do not want these contracts, Mr. Chair, to go to a room somewhere so it also handcuffs members of Parliament and creates a longer story in the longer run. That won't solve the situation.

Otherwise, we're going to be back up here. I don't want to be back up here.

7:15 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley

Mr. Masse, before we get to Mr. Sousa, I saw a bunch of heads nodding when you were talking about your proposed motion down the road.

Perhaps, if we are in agreement, we can zap number (i), number (ii) and number (iii). We can have Mr. Masse move that as a formal motion.

7:15 p.m.

Conservative

Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB

I have a quick point of order, Mr. Chair.

I assume the words “given that” would be removed as well, so that it would just read, “That an order do issue for the production” etc. I assume that's okay.

7:15 p.m.

NDP

Brian Masse NDP Windsor West, ON

Yes, thank you for that clarification.

I would make a formal motion that we subtract those—

7:15 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley

Perfect. We'll—

7:15 p.m.

NDP

Brian Masse NDP Windsor West, ON

—with the clear understanding that I do not want to see substitutions or equivalency put into—

7:15 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley

Perfect.

I think Mr. Masse's amendment is to delete “given that” and number (i), number (ii) and number (iii).

We seem to have consent.

7:15 p.m.

An hon. member

On division.

7:15 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley

We'll do it on division, but we can move forward.

(Amendment agreed to on division)

Thanks, Mr. Masse.

Mr. Sousa, the floor is yours, sir.

7:15 p.m.

Liberal

Charles Sousa Liberal Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON

Thank you.

I appreciate the comments made by Mr. Masse in regards to this issue. It's important for us to recognize the importance of this investment to the industry.

To the point made by all of you, we recognize the importance of this to Canada's vitality, economic prosperity and engagement in creating jobs. Certainly, for Ontario and for Canada, in the auto sector, it's a prominent industry, and we have done much over the years, over multiple different governments, to invest in it and to support it. This is about continuing to support this investment and to secure Canada's position as we go forward.

We are an attractive destination for direct investment. We have been, and we want it to continue to be so because we are competing against other jurisdictions around the world for this.

The matter being proposed through this motion puts in jeopardy some of the very issues in, and the nature of, these contracts. I recently heard one of the members talking about this as though it were the private sector, and the shareholders of this are now the public because of taxpayer dollars engagement. Even in a private sector or a public company, the shareholders are apprised of the generalities of the investment, but not the sensitivities and the competitive nature of those investments. That's restricted to the board and to the executive for fear, of course, that they have a competitive industry with other players and stakeholders involved.

I find it ironic that now we're talking about foreign direct investments and the issues of South Korea when that very trade agreement was brought in by Stephen Harper, prior. Now they're contradicting that, just as they've contradicted the Ukrainian free trade agreement that was just proposed. It's as though they're not into free trade agreements, and they're not into enabling Canada's competitiveness as we go forward, which I find interesting.

Canada does the same thing with other countries and with other investments. There were the CANDU reactors in the past. We foster the investment, and we enable Canada to compete in other parts of the world. We've brought forward certain expertise and used that to construct the nature of those factories and the production facilities.

In this case, there's been some inflation and some misinformation. I appreciate that we need to get to the bottom of it by way of reviewing those contracts. However, we are talking about the production of permanent jobs here in Canada for Canadians by investing in the skills necessary to compete in this new EV strategy and the production facilities. Of course, like every contract that some have discussed, there are performance measures and trigger points by which it would be enabled. When we look at a prediction or at a plant that may not have proceeded, it doesn't mean the monies were invested by Canadians at that point. It means it didn't meet their measures at that point. There are measures in place. The monies going into this plant are from Stellantis. The initial investments are from Stellantis first. Canada comes in at a second position and at a second phase.

When you look at the duplication of some of the requests, we have other committees that are also reviewing them, or wishing to review them. I think it would be important for us to engage with them in order for this body, us here in this committee, to have a better understanding of what's in those trade agreements without, of course, exposing those companies, who are nervous about other competitors being aware of their deals, and their shareholders aren't aware of the particulars of those deals. That would be inappropriate as well.

However, the interests of Canadians and our economy, and creating permanent jobs in Canada, are at the forefront of everything we do. I'm shocked at the way this is being developed by the opposition. Had we not done the deal, we would have been accused of not being at the table. We would have been accused of letting the Americans take it over. We would have been accused of not being competitive and of the idea that Canada is not an attractive place to do business, and, in fact, we are.

Proprietary information and patents also have to be secured. We need to secure our position in that regard as well.

All in all, it's as though they don't want to be part of the EV strategy. The whole world is going in this direction. If we want to sit back, let it go beyond us and put our heads in the sand, as the opposition seems to be proposing, then we'll be left behind, and Canadians will lose. We are fighting hard to ensure that we're at the forefront of economic development.

I support Mr. Masse's idea and notion of eliminating the preamble and initiating some purpose by which we allow our members here in this committee—and others—to review the contract in greater detail and to have confidence in what is being said without jeopardizing the confidentiality of these deals and without jeopardizing Canada's ability to continue to attract foreign direct investment, or we'll be seen as a banana republic that is not there to protect the interests of these deals.

That is what the opposition is trying to suggest: putting Canadians at risk and not really fighting for Canada, but instead fighting for their YouTube hits and enabling themselves to look like stars and not looking at the interests of Canadians, as we are doing here.

I support the notion of providing the information that's being requested, but doing so in a way that protects the information without being exposed to the competitive nature and other jurisdictions that will then take advantage of what we're doing here.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

7:20 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley

Thanks, Mr. Sousa.

Mr. Kusmierczyk, it's over to you, please.

Then we have Mr. Genuis and Ms. Vignola.

7:20 p.m.

Liberal

Irek Kusmierczyk Liberal Windsor—Tecumseh, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want to say thank you to my colleague from Windsor West for bringing forward a really thoughtful motion here, a change to an amendment that eliminates a lot of the disinformation, misinformation and the politics and the games. That really was my primary concern: that we keep the games, the politics, and the misinformation about this important discussion we're having about these investments.... I just wanted to say thank you to my colleague from down the street, from Windsor West.

I want to sing from the rooftops the story of investment in Canada in electric vehicles and battery plants. This is such a great story that I can't wait to share it with Canadians.

You look at the last three years of investments: $30 billion in investments. The Stellantis battery plant, which is the first battery plant in Canada, is but the first battery plant, and the first major investment of $5 billion. You look at the Volkswagen investment just up the 401 in St. Thomas: $7 billion and more than 5,000 jobs created.

Look at Northvolt, which is a Swedish company, investing in Montreal, with $7 billion and 3,000 jobs; at Umicore, again, close to a $3-billion investment and 1,000 jobs in Kingston; and at GM-POSCO, again a $600-million investment in Quebec. Again, you can look at General Motors in Oshawa, with $1.28 billion and 1,000 jobs; at Honda in Alliston, with $1.35 billion; and at Ford in Oakville, with $1.84 billion.

Mr. Chair, that's $30 billion plus in investment in automotive in just the last three years, and tens of thousands of jobs, not just in Windsor but up and down the 401 in Ontario and Quebec, and in Maple Ridge, British Columbia—all across the country. This is what happens when you have a federal government making big investments, partnering with workers and partnering with industry.

This is what happens. I get that the Conservatives want to cast shade on this good-news story. They want to cast shade and doubt, and I get it, because they don't want to remind Canadians that when they were in government they lost 300,000 manufacturing jobs in Canada. When the Conservatives were in power, they let 300,000 manufacturing jobs walk out of our country. That's 300,000 and—

7:20 p.m.

Conservative

Rick Perkins Conservative South Shore—St. Margarets, NS

I have a point of order—

7:20 p.m.

Liberal

Irek Kusmierczyk Liberal Windsor—Tecumseh, ON

Here we go again. Here's the interruption.

7:25 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley

I'm sorry. I have a point of order, Mr. Kusmierczyk—

7:25 p.m.

Liberal

Irek Kusmierczyk Liberal Windsor—Tecumseh, ON

Sure. We expected this, Mr. Chair.

7:25 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley

We'll get back to you.

Go ahead, Mr. Perkins.

7:25 p.m.

Conservative

Rick Perkins Conservative South Shore—St. Margarets, NS

It's on the relevance to the motion.

7:25 p.m.

Liberal

Irek Kusmierczyk Liberal Windsor—Tecumseh, ON

I'm surprised that you let me talk this long.

7:25 p.m.

Conservative

Rick Perkins Conservative South Shore—St. Margarets, NS

Relevance to the motion....

7:25 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley

On asking for relevance, we of course always allow a wide degree of speaking on a topic, but I'm sure Mr. Kusmierczyk will get a bit closer to the motion at hand.

7:25 p.m.

Liberal

Irek Kusmierczyk Liberal Windsor—Tecumseh, ON

Yes, absolutely. I'll get back closer to home.

We felt that devastation in Windsor when the Conservatives were in power in 2015. We had 11.2% unemployment in our community.

That was 11.2% in our community in unemployment. We remember those days. We know that the Leader of the Opposition, the current leader of the Conservative opposition, was the minister of employment at the time. Of course, in Windsor, we refer to him as the “minister of unemployment”.

But we have now a battery plant here, Mr. Chair, that is creating two and a half thousand permanent jobs in my community. This is our great hope. This is our great future. This is our community's great rebound. Windsor is the comeback story of Canada, and it is because we're making these major investments here. I will sing from the rooftops and shout from the rooftops the good news about the $30 billion of investment that this federal government has delivered for Canadians and in manufacturing communities from coast to coast to coast.

We will continue to deliver investments for Canadians, and the Conservatives can keep giving words and casting shade and casting doubt. We will keep delivering. That's what we will do.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

7:25 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley

Thank you, Mr. Kusmierczyk.

Mr. Genuis.

Ms. Vignola, please go ahead.

7:25 p.m.

Bloc

Julie Vignola Bloc Beauport—Limoilou, QC

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I also want to thank you for waiting until I got back.

I'm a woman of consensus. I'm trying to find a junction point in what we're looking for, so that we can achieve a common goal. To that end, I have an amendment to propose that could meet the need to know the agreements about workers, whether Canadian or foreign, and all the human resources provisions that the contracts might contain. The amendment will be sent to you shortly.

Now, I understand that, instead of the first three points, the first paragraph says that we want “an order do issue for the production of copies”. I would add: “of the text of any provision that relates to the hiring or use of foreign workers or that relates to language requirements and language of work in any contract, memorandum of understanding or other agreement between a minister, a department and an agency”.

Finally, I'm focusing on what we're looking for in the original motion, that is to say information about human resources, foreign workers and language requirements for them. I believe that would get us the answers to the questions we're asking ourselves and, I hope, bring us to a consensus. I have not gone around the table, because I've just arrived. That would give us all the answers we're looking for regarding the hiring of foreign workers.

When Canada builds plants abroad, I know that we hire Canadian workers. It's common practice. However, as I said this morning, I have never seen 1,600 Canadian workers go and help build a plant abroad. There will be a few engineers and a few electrical technicians, but never 1,600 people. That's why it's important to look at the human resources provisions of the contracts, since those are the ones we've been discussing since this morning. By looking at those particular provisions, we will also allow other committees to do their work on the elements that concern them, whether it be technology or knowledge, for example. We're going to focus on what's been raised in committee since this morning, that is to say the human resources provisions in the contracts.

That's the amendment I wanted to move. Has it been distributed to everyone, Mr. Chair?

7:30 p.m.

Conservative

Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB

I have a point of order, Mr. Chair.

My understanding is that this is not been distributed and I haven't received it.

Could we suspend for now?