Government Operations Committee on March 22nd, 2022

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

Okay.

What do you need in order to make your procurement succeed? What would cause us to fail, and how can we help address it? Basically, what has been your number one frustration in this process?

[Simon Page]

I must say that in the execution of this process, there has been very little frustration. As stated a bit earlier, we conducted a fair, open and transparent competition. We had a phased bid compliance process, which was embraced by industry. We're very happy with where we are. We're happy with the recent milestones, with the evaluation being completed, and moving forward with the next phase of the procurement. We are now just about to get to the next step of the phased procurement. There's no indication of failure and there's no frustration. We just need to keep going and execute the process soundly.

Thank you.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

Could you perhaps talk about how often leadership has changed in this process? Will it change again in the near future?

[Simon Page]

Yes, there has been leadership change in the process, but because the process was very rigid and executed according to very specific rules, using a governance that was specifically applied to the project itself and overseen from a process point of view by the defence procurement strategy governance, we would be on solid ground if any other leadership changes were to occur.

We're moving forward. We're approaching some of the last phases of the procurement process. As I said, we're on solid ground and are just trying to execute the remainder of the program.

Thank you.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

In terms of Canadian procurement, I mean, when you look around the world, we're criticized for being inefficient compared with other countries. Can you share your viewpoint on how we stand up against other countries in terms of our efficiency on procurement?

[Simon Page]

I have not done any specific analysis with respect to where we are comparatively with international partners or allies, but as mentioned in our intro remarks, on both the DND side and the PSPC side, we are very proud of the progress we have made here executing “Strong, Secure, Engaged”. With the release of key solicitation processes over the recent while, we are on track to execute the program as per current milestones.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Robert Gordon Kitchen]

Thank you, Mr. Page and Mr. Johns.

We'll start our second round with Mr. McCauley.

You have five minutes.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

Thanks, Mr. Chair.

Gentlemen, thanks for your information so far.

A couple of weeks ago, we had PSPC in to discuss the estimates process. We asked a question from the press release regarding the jets. Over the coming weeks, Canada will finalize the next steps unless we re-engage bidders to provide them an opportunity to improve their proposals. We were told by PSPC that it could delay things for another year on top of the existing delays.

Whose decision is it, at this point, after six years of waiting, to perhaps delay things for another year?

[Simon Page]

This is part of the live procurement process that I spoke about. Canada is now further progressing the procurement process and we have enough to make a decision about either moving into a—

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

I'm sorry, sir. This is not progressing the procurement process when you're potentially delaying it.

Whose decision is it to perhaps delay it another year to allow the two remaining bidders to sweeten their deal?

[Simon Page]

I was just going to get there with the procurement process phase that we're contemplating now. The procurement process is now at a juncture where there's an upcoming decision about either moving into a dialogue—

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

It's a simple answer. Whose decision is it, please, to perhaps re-enter negotiations with the two remaining bidders?

This has been over a six-year process. Now we're hearing we may decide to award the project or we may delay it for another year to allow the two bidders to sweeten the pot.

Whose decision is that? Is it PSPC? Is it DND? Is it a political decision?

Whose decision is it, please?

[Simon Page]

This is a Government of Canada defence procurement decision, and defence procurement involves the three departments that are involved in defence procurement, so DND in this case—

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

Okay. Thank you.

With everything going on with Ukraine, and all the delays, we are still potentially looking at another year added before we make a decision. Is that correct?

[Simon Page]

As mentioned, the procurement process remains very live. Answering the question would have us lean one way, then, over the other, and I just don't want to answer it at this time to privilege the integrity of the process.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

What are we doing different from our allies? This actually came up about four years ago when we asked it in this very committee.

Belgium took a year to decide on a fighter jet; Denmark took less than a year; Finland, three years; Japan, one year; and Poland, less than a year. Why does it take us six years to get to a point where we might delay it another year?

I refer back to this committee: “The Government...remains committed to building a more agile, better-equipped military, while ensuring best value for Canadians”. That was regarding the fighter jets. That was from June 2016. Now, six years later, we could be looking at another year's delay.

What has gone wrong here with our procurement process? You talk about how proud you are of the process, but it has been six years, with perhaps another year added on. We have pilots dropping out of the RCAF, and the PBO and the AG slamming the process, and we can't even get a simple answer as to when we're going to have a decision made. What is the problem here? What is the issue?

I realize it's complicated, but it has been six years, when our allies, with much smaller procurement departments, can make a decision within a year. Here we are, six years in, and it could be another year on top of that.

[Simon Page]

If we look at the precise window of time when the procurement process took form, through the release of the formal request for proposals and where we are now, I would argue that it has been effected and conducted very effectively.

As you mention, it is complex. It is multi-faceted. Industry is—

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

How much time has been lost due to political interference as opposed to the complexity of this deal?

I'm going to assume that the decision to delay it another year to have the two companies sweeten the pot is purely a political decision. PSPC tried to say it was the military, but this is for financial considerations, not what the military is asking for.

[Simon Page]

In my time here, I've been seeing the evaluation of all the proposals being brought home and the step that we conducted in December 2021, with moving forward with two compliant bidders. This has been a process that adhered to the highest principles of integrity. We maintain our standards. We respect the conducting of a fair, open and transparent process right up to contract award.

[The Chair, Conservative, Robert Gordon Kitchen]

Thank you, Mr. Page.

We'll now go to Mr. Kusmierczyk for five minutes.

[Irek Kusmierczyk, Liberal, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I've been following along with the excellent conversation and questions and answers, so I really do appreciate the testimony here today.

I want to just pick up really quickly on a question from my colleague from earlier in the conversation regarding the remotely piloted aircraft systems that are being purchased.

I understand that there are going to be about 240 air force members who will be staffing these systems. I want to know whether we currently have the staffing capacity for the remotely piloted aircraft systems or whether the recruitment will begin as we get closer to the date when those drones are delivered. I just want to see how the training and recruitment match the delivery of those aircraft.

[MGen Sylvain Ménard]

I would like to start by saying that it is a new capability. We don't know exactly which platform we're going to get, so it is hard for us at this time to start training any air force personnel towards that mission. In any of these procurements, as soon as we have an identified platform, we will then put forward a training plan that will be effective in meeting both the initial appraisal capability and the final appraisal capability in due time.

That's pretty much all I can say at this time.

I will say, from an air force perspective, that these will be a brand new, shining capability, so I'm sure that we will not have any issues attracting people to go to operate these platforms.

[Irek Kusmierczyk, Liberal, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

I appreciate that, Major-General. That makes perfect sense to me.

I have a general question for those who are sort of uninitiated in terms of the process of how PSPC and DND work together. How do the two entities work together to ensure that we are procuring the equipment needed to support Canada's armed forces? What does that back and forth look like? What does the communication collaboration look like, in general terms?

[Simon Page]

I think the key enabler for our relationship, which is very rich and very continuous, is the defence procurement strategy governance that was established a few years ago in support of defence procurement. It brings to the table the client department, in this case DND and ISED, with PSPC at various levels depending on the complexity. The value of the projects has really been an excellent return on investment.

The conversations happen through the governance. We are able to synchronize on issues, specific requirements, specific appreciation of what the procurement will look like, how difficult this will become as a procurement, a solicitation process, and then specific variables such as procurement strategy and social and indigenous procurement points. We are able to synchronize and align early in the discussion, when the projects are still an option, and that assists in Mr. Crosby's lane. By the time we reach the time to execute an invitation to qualify or release a draft RFP, we know exactly where we're going and we know exactly what we're trying to achieve. We can then move forward in a swifter fashion.

Thank you.

[Irek Kusmierczyk, Liberal, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

That's terrific. I appreciate that.

I just want to pick up on your mention of the partnership and collaboration with indigenous communities. It's something I wanted to highlight. As outlined in DND's 2022-23 departmental plan, defence intergovernmental affairs is engaging indigenous women's organizations and elders as partners in the work to strengthen domestic and continental defence and to modernize NORAD.

This is an open question to any of the witnesses. Can you speak to collaboration and procurement, especially on procurement that's taking place with Inuit and indigenous partners? You mentioned before a contract being awarded on the maintenance of the North Warning System. Can you maybe speak about how that fits into DND's procurement plans?