Government Operations Committee on March 22nd, 2022

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

I think that is what's happening right now. The provinces are making requests and the federal government is stepping in, but why isn't the federal government getting ahead of it, playing offence, and actually assuming the responsibility of night firefighting capacity, for example, working with companies like Coulson and actually being there on ready and on standby to help support provinces? We know it's going to get worse and we know a lot of provinces actually don't have capacity.

Is this something DND is considering and looking at?

[Simon Page]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I will defer to my DND colleague here. In PSPC I'm responsible for the defence and marine branch, and that requirement is not being tracked at the moment.

[The Chair, Conservative, Robert Gordon Kitchen]

Thank you, gentlemen.

Unfortunately, timewise we need to move along.

We will go to Mr. McCauley for five minutes.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

Thanks, Chair, and thanks, gentlemen.

Can you update us on this issue with the C-295 Kingfisher? There were centre of gravity issues and, I guess, issues about the inability of search and rescue to parachute out of the back of the plane.

I'm curious as to why we took so long to procure. How did we end up with planes being delivered that can't be used?

[Troy Crosby]

As is typical in our procurement processes, once we are in a contract with a provider, of course, we start to work much more closely. We move through the process of ensuring that the equipment meets the contracted operational and performance requirements, and we conduct testing and ultimately—

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

This is a mature design, a long-existing design. How did we end up with planes that have centre of gravity issues? It's not a new build.

[Troy Crosby]

Mr. Chair, the C-295 is a mature aircraft. The aircraft that we have for our fixed-wing search and rescue requirements has been modified to fulfill the operational requirement for fixed-wing search and rescue, as was mentioned in the question, to include the ability to have parachutists, search and rescue technicians, safely exit the aircraft to conduct search or rescue operations.

That testing is under way right now, and we have successfully and safely demonstrated the ability of the parachutist to exit the aircraft.

Specifically in terms of the question around centre of gravity issues, all aircraft have centre of gravity considerations and they are dealt with through appropriate operational procedures.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

Were you expecting these problems in advance, then, if all airplanes have centre of gravity issues, as you just stated?

[Troy Crosby]

Not necessarily. I have to correct myself if I said that. It's not centre of gravity issues. They're considerations in how the aircraft is safely operated by the crews.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

How modified have they been from the existing design, then? These planes have been around for a long time. I remember reading that the RFPs were a hundred thousand pages from the three companies. We covered every possible outcome for modification.

How did we end up with planes that can't be used or are being so delayed for years?

[Troy Crosby]

Mr. Chair, some of the modifications that are being brought to the C-295 for our application include Airbus enclosing the landing gear. In the older model C-295, you would actually see the wheels protruding below the belly of the airplane. Given the range and endurance requirements for our fixed-wing search and rescue role over our huge territory, Airbus has put enclosures around the wheels to increase the aerodynamic efficiency of the aircraft.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

Who's paying to get these up to speed so to speak, or up to code, so that they can be used? When will we actually see them in service, and in what numbers?

[Troy Crosby]

Mr. Chair, the procurement process and the proposal that was provided by Airbus included the cost of these modifications, which go beyond the ones I've described to date and include bringing mission systems specific to the fixed-wing search and rescue role [Inaudible—Editor] search radar—

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

Are the delays a hundred per cent on them for the cost of any of the changes?

[Troy Crosby]

The cost for the program delivery is part of the contract.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

Right. You're saying these delays for the centre of gravity issues and the issues of parachuting out the back will not cost Canadian taxpayers one penny.

[Troy Crosby]

The cost of any modifications or testing followed by modification would be with Airbus. Of course, we continue to invest time and effort in the process and we want to see it conclude as quickly as possible.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

When will we see some of them enter service?

[Troy Crosby]

The initial operating capability timelines for the aircraft have been reviewed recently. We're going to see an extended timeline in order to see those aircraft in use.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

Maybe you can send the committee a note in writing about the timelines.

I think you or one of the other witnesses commented earlier about difficulty negotiating with Leonardo regarding contracts for fixing the Cormorant. Is that correct? Did I hear right?

[Troy Crosby]

I think Mr. Page commented on our work with Leonardo on the Cormorant mid-life upgrade project.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

I recall that Leonardo sued us for the bid on the fixed-wing search and rescue. They got a sole-source contract worth billions to work with the government. Now they're making things difficult for us on fixing these vital helicopters.

[Troy Crosby]

Mr. Chair, just to clarify, there is no contract at this point for the Cormorant mid-life upgrade project.

I would ask Mr. Page if he has anything he'd like to add on that.

[The Chair, Conservative, Robert Gordon Kitchen]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Page, if you have anything further that you can add to that, we'd appreciate you providing that to the clerk.

I will now go to Mr. Housefather for five minutes.

[Anthony Housefather, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I want to thank the witnesses. I think recently we have all been so moved by what is happening in Ukraine that we see the vital importance of the work that you do every day to make sure the men and women of our armed forces have the equipment they need to function and thrive.

I'm going to try my best not to get into the contract itself, because I understand there are still two finalists and we can't favour one over the other. We can't say things about the F-35s that we can't say about Gripen E.

One thing I want to ask is, when does the Department of Defence determine that you need capabilities outside of the generic plane that would normally be sold? For example, the U.S. military would use the F-35 Lightning, too. When would we determine that the Canadian Armed Forces would require something different from the generic plane being used by other allies?