Evidence of meeting #97 for Government Operations and Estimates in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was business.
A video is available from Parliament.
Conservative
Larry Brock Conservative Brantford—Brant, ON
I'm going to stop you right there. You said you didn't lie, but you used the word “fibbed”. What's your definition of “fibbed”?
Professional Consultant, As an Individual
Well, if they don't recall the conversation, then the interpretation would be that I fibbed.
Conservative
Larry Brock Conservative Brantford—Brant, ON
Sir, you're quoted as saying that you “'fibbed' in an effort to put pressure on Ms. Dutt to take more action on the file.” You were admitting this to Bill Curry, a reporter for The Globe and Mail. If that's not a definition of a lie, I don't what is.
What is your definition of “fibbed”? I can understand why you have some great difficulty in this, because you want to maintain your credibility, sir, but you've admitted to a reporter that you lied to a client with whom you had a contractual relationship.
Professional Consultant, As an Individual
We had marketing discussions based on hypothetical scenarios.
Conservative
Larry Brock Conservative Brantford—Brant, ON
Sir, you deliberately lied to Ms. Dutt, a principal owner of Botler AI, who had a contractual relationship with you to do a service on their behalf to make a connection with the government. You've now admitted to all of Canada, and certainly to this committee and to Bill Curry, that you deliberately lied to her. You wanted to exaggerate. Is that correct?
Professional Consultant, As an Individual
That's incorrect. Ms Dutt was part of those conversations and well understood that it was a marketing effort and that we had several hypothetical scenarios, given that the workplace harassment management and GC AI adoption strategies were still evolving.
Conservative
Larry Brock Conservative Brantford—Brant, ON
Did you lie to Bill Curry, then, by saying that you lied to Ms. Dutt? Is that a lie upon a lie?
Professional Consultant, As an Individual
It wasn't a lie upon a lie, sir. It was basically trying to get—
Conservative
Larry Brock Conservative Brantford—Brant, ON
It's your definition of “fibbed”. Okay, I'll take that. I don't know if Canadians will, but I'll accept that for the purposes of the time that I have.
You then further responded to Bill Curry in an email and a follow-up phone call. You're quoted as saying, “I did not and do not have any contacts within the Liberal government nor in the PCO.”
Setting aside the PCO, based on what I've heard so far for the past half-hour, that statement again would be a lie, because you've already referenced a number of government officials. It's not just, as you put it, “I deal directly with directors and managers.” You've dealt directly with deputy ministers and assistant deputy ministers, if not ministers themselves. The question I put to you is this: Why are you continuing to lie, sir?
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley
I have to cut you off there, Mr. Brock.
I'm sorry, Mr. Brennan, but you'll have to respond in Mr. Brock's next intervention.
Mr. Jowhari, welcome back. Happy new year. Go ahead for five minutes please.
Liberal
Majid Jowhari Liberal Richmond Hill, ON
Thank you, Chair, and happy new year to all of my colleagues and all of their staff.
Mr. Brennan, over the next five minutes I'm going to frame my questions to you around three different pillars. I want to start with ArriveCAN, which is really the focus of this study. I have a number of quick questions.
Sir, did you ever work on ArriveCAN?
Liberal
Majid Jowhari Liberal Richmond Hill, ON
Did you have any type of discussion whatsoever with GC Strategies or anybody at CBSA who had anything to do with ArriveCAN?
Liberal
Majid Jowhari Liberal Richmond Hill, ON
Are you aware of any investigation of ArriveCAN by the RCMP, or have you been approached by the RCMP in relation to ArriveCAN?
Liberal
Majid Jowhari Liberal Richmond Hill, ON
You've had nothing to do with ArriveCAN, which is really the focus of this committee right now under this study. Thank you for that.
The next area I want to focus on is Botler AI. Your relationship with Botler AI as you have identified it was that you were hired on a separate contract by Botler AI to provide consulting services for a period between February 1 and, I believe you said, August 1, for the total sum of $2,565.10. Can you briefly tell us what the scope of that work was?
Professional Consultant, As an Individual
Under the contract I can't identify specifics, but I can say that it was primarily for research, document compilation and report writing.
Liberal
Majid Jowhari Liberal Richmond Hill, ON
It has been alleged that you boasted about your relationship in order to secure a $2,565.10 contract. Can you comment on that, sir?
Professional Consultant, As an Individual
I can't comment, but to your point, it would be very ludicrous for me to do that.
Liberal
Majid Jowhari Liberal Richmond Hill, ON
Are you aware that there's an investigation by the RCMP, as well as an internal investigation by CBSA, around Botler AI?
Professional Consultant, As an Individual
No, I am not aware, and I have not been contacted by them or by auditors.
Liberal
Majid Jowhari Liberal Richmond Hill, ON
You have not been contacted by the RCMP. You were not contacted by the internal audit area or anyone in there. As you've suggested—or at least the way you explained it—the Botler AI contract for $2,565.10 was for some sort of consulting, and there was somehow this urge to be able to boast about your relationship with the ADM, which looks like it was around three other projects.
Let's talk about the third and final area that I want to focus on, which is your responses to the media. Why would the media frame this as something like your having some kind of a relationship with the Minister of Finance and the deputy, and your having prepared a letter? Why would the media do that?
Professional Consultant, As an Individual
To be candid, I can't comment on why they would do that, but I can share with you that all of the conversations I had with Botler—specifically marketing discussions—were based on hypothetical scenarios. Those hypothetical scenarios were based on the fact that workplace harassment is quite a hot topic and the fact that the federal government hasn't landed on an approach yet—and neither has industry, quite candidly—with AI. Those conversations that were taped have all been taken out of context, because, again, they were about hypothetical and speculative matters.
Liberal
Majid Jowhari Liberal Richmond Hill, ON
I'm hoping in the next round I may get a chance to explore those hypothetical scenarios. Did you ever draft a letter directly to the Minister of Finance or to the office of the Minister of Finance or the deputy finance minister or anybody in there? Did you personally draft a letter?