Evidence of meeting #97 for Government Operations and Estimates in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was business.
A video is available from Parliament.
Conservative
Stephanie Kusie Conservative Calgary Midnapore, AB
That was a Botler decision, yet both my colleagues, Mr. Brock and Mr. Genuis, I believe, have asked questions that indicate otherwise.
The day after the email was sent, you informed Ms. Ritika Dutt that the Liberal government was looking for a home for the Botler opportunity. Who was your contact who provided that information?
Professional Consultant, As an Individual
Again, that was hypothetical, based on a text, and I do not have any of those contacts.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley
Thank you very much.
Now we will go to Ms. Lattanzio for five minutes.
Welcome to OGGO. Go ahead, please.
Liberal
Patricia Lattanzio Liberal Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I will yield my time to my colleague, Marcus.
Liberal
Marcus Powlowski Liberal Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON
Thank you.
I want to get back to the quote in The Globe and Mail about how you “fibbed”. My understanding was that it was about your contacts in government and hearing back from them.
I've heard, I think, on this panel that you were talking about a hypothetical or it was a misquote, and you were referring to GEDS. Maybe I'm dense, but I'm just not clear on the context.
Did you say you fibbed? What were you talking about? That seems to be one of the main fingers being pointed at you. You said you fibbed and now you're saying you didn't. I just want to clarify what that's all about.
Professional Consultant, As an Individual
Thank you for the opportunity to explain.
There were conversations with Botler and the team around using GEDS to identify, if you will, the hierarchy within DPMO. That was how we came up with the names. That's how we had the discussions.
When I asked the question, I was told that they didn't recall that conversation, so then my perception would be that they fibbed.
Liberal
Marcus Powlowski Liberal Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON
Botler fibbed when they said they didn't recall that there was that conversation.
Professional Consultant, As an Individual
Yes. Whoever it was said that they didn't recall.
Liberal
Professional Consultant, As an Individual
That's right. Well, at the end of the day, it would look as though I fibbed.
Liberal
Professional Consultant, As an Individual
If they didn't recall the conversation, it looked as though I fibbed.
Liberal
Marcus Powlowski Liberal Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON
Okay. I see.
You also mentioned an NDA you had with Botler. I assume that's a non-disclosure agreement. Is that kind of standard in the industry? Why would that be there? I think the public perception is that if you have a non-disclosure agreement, you have something to hide, but maybe that's just the standard, so maybe you could explain that for me.
Professional Consultant, As an Individual
Yes. It is a standard in the private sector. It's usually focused on protecting their intellectual property and any conversations around it.
Liberal
Marcus Powlowski Liberal Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON
I want to ask you something about the bureaucratic process, because you said your expertise is in business architecture and government resource management. I'm a long-time doctor. I worked in a hospital for a long time. I was continually frustrated by the bureaucracy and the fact that the bureaucracy seemed to be there to perpetuate the bureaucracy rather than to help us on the front line. When you talk to police officers and teachers, they all feel the same way. Certainly I think the perception in the government and when we talk to you is that there's this big spider web of consultants. You were paid as a consultant for Botler, which was subcontracted by GC Strategies, which was contracted by CBSA. This is consultants on consultants, consultants consulting consultants who consult other consultants, and it's all about where you're going to meet to decide when the next meeting is. This is all like a big misuse of government money.
That's been my perception, and it's not just with our government. I'm sure the Conservative government bureaucracy was there. The provinces and the municipalities have their own bureaucracies. Everyone has their bureaucracies. Can you explain this to me? I am a bit of a doubter with respect to bureaucracies. Where's the efficiency? Why do we have all this? Do we really need it, or are we just paying people for spinning the wheels?
Professional Consultant, As an Individual
I honestly don't know how to answer the question. I was contracted directly by Botler as a private sector enterprise. It had nothing to do with the project. I was actually hired by Botler to help them with their business.
Liberal
Marcus Powlowski Liberal Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON
Why does Botler hire you? What's your expertise, or is it just that you've been doing this for a longer time and you know the way government works?
Professional Consultant, As an Individual
Yes and no. My expertise is specifically on Treasury Board guidelines and plans, if you will. There is also the fact that I have an amount of private sector understanding as well to help them with their business.
Liberal
Marcus Powlowski Liberal Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON
That's why Botler wanted you to write the letter for them, which would go to Finance—because you have knowledge regarding how things work.
Professional Consultant, As an Individual
No. Writing that letter was really outside of my skill set. That's a marketing activity for the most part. What they were hiring me to do was to help them understand how their AI data would connect to standard federal government practices.
Liberal
January 17th, 2024 / 1:30 p.m.
Professional Consultant, As an Individual
It's their artificial intelligence. They're a data company. That was the value of what they were trying to provide the federal government. It's a proactive way to manage harassment issues, if you will. They would capture that data and meter, measure, manage it, if you will, so they could proactively manage harassment. That was the understanding.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley
Thank you, Mr. Brennan.
Mr. Brock, go ahead, please, for five minutes.
Conservative
Larry Brock Conservative Brantford—Brant, ON
Thank you, Chair.
Mr. Brennan, earlier you responded to a question from Mr. Johns about how you've never double-dipped. Do you still stand by that, sir?