Evidence of meeting #98 for Government Operations and Estimates in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was investigation.
A video is available from Parliament.
As an Individual
Thank you for the question. Actually, I don't think I'm qualified to answer that. You need someone with a technology background.
I think the point that Mr. Doan was likely making was that it was in an instance that was in the government's control as opposed to a private sector entity's instance of where that cloud was. But I really can't comment on the technicalities of that.
Bloc
Julie Vignola Bloc Beauport—Limoilou, QC
Okay.
You'll no doubt recall that, during the pandemic, Deloitte was the company that managed everything related to the supply of medical equipment from China, including the departure of planes and boats carrying masks.
Would Deloitte have been available to create a mobile app, or was their role in managing the supply of medical equipment too important?
Conservative
As an Individual
I believe Mr. MacDonald said that Deloitte was available to provide this outsource solution that was proposed.
NDP
Gord Johns NDP Courtenay—Alberni, BC
Thank you very much, both of you, for coming back here, and for the important work you do and have done for Canada.
I want to start with you, Ms. O'Gorman. I'll read from an email Cameron MacDonald sent to Minh Doan on November 19, 2019. Cameron says that Minh directed him to “look into a specific domain within HR using AI”. He says, “I found a company in Montreal and connected with GC Strategies, who sought options to move something forward”. That company was Botler AI.
So what we have here is a government official saying they clearly identified a solution, but they chose to bring in a middle person to profit off it first. We've seen the direct message that GC Strategies sent to Botler on LinkedIn. That's not professional headhunting that the government can't do itself. It really seems that GC Strategies was brought in as a middle person for no reason at all except to profit off a taxpayer-paid contract. Unless we see evidence to the contrary, that's what this shows.
Ms. O'Gorman, do you believe this is acceptable? With many more eyes on CBSA's procurements right now, have you found other cases of where this is happening? What is your plan to figure out whether this is happening in other cases?
President, Canada Border Services Agency
I note your comment about unless other information comes to the fore.
With regard to your question, I don't agree that that was proper procurement. It was not an unsolicited proposal. The rules allow for prime contractors to subcontract and, as this committee has heard and asked about, to sub-subcontract. It's not for the CBSA or a department to try to manage and develop those subcontracts. Those are business decisions between entities in the course of a procurement. What I have seen, based on the documents that you're referring to, is that the CBSA's involvement in how those contracts would come together is not usual.
In looking at other options, the CBSA presumably could have put out an RFP for its requirements. It could have looked to justify a sole source. It could have used supply arrangements and pre-qualified. There were other options. It's not clear to me that what was happening was appropriate. In fact, it appears to be inappropriate. The spirit of the supply arrangements and standing offers is not to retrofit products through them.
NDP
President, Canada Border Services Agency
Do you mean the suspensions of the companies?
NDP
President, Canada Border Services Agency
Neither Mr. MacDonald nor Mr. Utano works for the CBSA. I have no authority over them. Their deputy heads have taken action.
NDP
Gord Johns NDP Courtenay—Alberni, BC
Understanding that, what's your plan to figure out whether this is happening in other cases? Have you looked to see if this is taking place in more than this instance?
President, Canada Border Services Agency
Twofold.... I have the investigation under way. The investigation is going to canvass all of those issues. I have a committee set up that's looking at every contract, asking the questions and trying to understand before any approvals are given.
NDP
Gord Johns NDP Courtenay—Alberni, BC
Now that you have this committee working, has the committee come back to you already and flagged other contracts that are of concern?
President, Canada Border Services Agency
The committee is forward-looking. We are reviewing documents related to contracts on ArriveCAN and the billing around that.
With regard to your question, I have the internal investigation that will be canvassing how the CBSA was engaging with contractors during this period. It's not limited to Botler and GC Strategies.
I look forward to those conclusions. I look forward to—
NDP
Gord Johns NDP Courtenay—Alberni, BC
When do we expect to have those conclusions? I mean, this could run for years, right? We don't want that. We want to make sure that we get results. That's what this committee wants.
President, Canada Border Services Agency
I'm very impatient. I need to make sure that I don't translate that impatience into undue pressure. I'm trying to preserve the integrity of the investigation. I hope that everybody involved will participate so that we can wrap it up as soon as possible. I would hesitate to give a date at this time.
NDP
Gord Johns NDP Courtenay—Alberni, BC
Mr. Ossowski, we've been told that GC Strategies was chosen over Deloitte because Deloitte was in the penalty box. You commented on that earlier. It was highlighted that it was for its poor work on the CARM project. Mr. Doan says that's not the reason.
Why was Deloitte in the penalty box, or are you even aware of why? What was the nature of the problems with Deloitte's work?
As an Individual
As I said in my opening remarks, the relationship was business-like and cordial at that time. No one was in the penalty box. I reviewed all the emails, and there's nothing to suggest it was anything different from that. It was normal—
NDP
Gord Johns NDP Courtenay—Alberni, BC
Ms. O'Gorman, can you comment on that since you are currently in the role?
President, Canada Border Services Agency
I can't comment about the statements that were made. I would say that the cordial and business-like relationship continues.
NDP
Gord Johns NDP Courtenay—Alberni, BC
So, Deloitte's never been in the penalty box, in your view, under your watch, and you're not aware of that in the past?
