Evidence of meeting #98 for Government Operations and Estimates in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was investigation.
A video is available from Parliament.
2:35 p.m.
Conservative
2:35 p.m.
Conservative
Larry Brock Conservative Brantford—Brant, ON
Previous to Dominic LeBlanc, Marco Mendicino was in that role as the Minister of Public Safety. Did you communicate with him as well?
2:35 p.m.
President, Canada Border Services Agency
I called him to inform him of the allegations I'd received.
2:35 p.m.
President, Canada Border Services Agency
He was concerned about the nature of them. He expressed his expectation that I would shore up any gaps, and informed me that I should keep him apprised if there were any developments that he needed to be aware of.
2:35 p.m.
Conservative
Larry Brock Conservative Brantford—Brant, ON
Were all of your communications via telephone or email?
2:35 p.m.
President, Canada Border Services Agency
I don't recall emailing the previous minister. I may have.
2:35 p.m.
Conservative
Larry Brock Conservative Brantford—Brant, ON
If you did, you will look back at your email chain with respect to both ministers and you'll provide copies to this committee within seven days. Is that okay?
2:35 p.m.
Conservative
Larry Brock Conservative Brantford—Brant, ON
Lying before this committee has become a serious problem with a number of witnesses. It's almost a culture of lying and deceit. Although you have not been sworn to tell the truth, there is the presumption that you are telling the truth when you appear at committee.
Mr. MacDonald, a now suspended public servant over the ArriveCAN app, said that you lied, specifically targeting you for a mistruth that you provided to committee this past fall.
Have you told the committee the truth and nothing but the truth today?
2:35 p.m.
President, Canada Border Services Agency
I have told the committee the answers to the questions truthfully and to the best of my recollection.
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Conservative
The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley
Thank you, Mr. Brock.
We're going to Ms. Atwin now, please, for five minutes.
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Liberal
Jenica Atwin Liberal Fredericton, NB
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I just have one quick question for Ms. O'Gorman, and then I will be directing most of my questions to Mr. Ossowski.
I have one piece that I'm confused about. When the contract was cancelled with Botler, was it due to issues with deliverables, or was it because of the misconduct allegations that came forward?
2:35 p.m.
President, Canada Border Services Agency
My understanding is that it was cancelled because the CBSA didn't feel it had a need to continue with the contract. I don't know the details. I don't know who made that decision, but that's my understanding.
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Liberal
Jenica Atwin Liberal Fredericton, NB
Okay.
Mr. Ossowski, do you have any additional comments to add to that?
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As an Individual
No. In fact, I have no recollection of the contract or the task authorizations with Botler. The meeting I had with them, when I got the demo, was my interaction with them. There were some subsequent emails back and forth that we talked about the last time I appeared, but that's it. I wasn't involved in the task authorizations.
2:40 p.m.
Liberal
Jenica Atwin Liberal Fredericton, NB
Thank you.
I would just like to remind our whole committee about the Treasury Board contracting policy. Ideally, we want government contracting to be conducted “in a manner that will stand the test of public scrutiny in matters of prudence and probity, facilitate access, encourage competition, and reflect fairness in the spending of public funds”. In other words, we want it to be fair, open and transparent.
Mr. Ossowski, in your view, has scrutiny of the ArriveCAN procurement process or allegations of wrongdoing from Botler revealed any shortcomings of the federal integrity regime for public procurement?
2:40 p.m.
As an Individual
Since I've retired and those investigations were started internally with what Ms. O'Gorman is doing within the agency, and then the procurement ombudsman and the Auditor General.... I'm sure they will find things that could be improved in the process, but I think it should be caveated with what was happening at that particular point in time.
2:40 p.m.
Liberal
Jenica Atwin Liberal Fredericton, NB
Okay. Thank you.
It's been argued at this committee and in the news that staffing firms like GC Strategies bring no added value to government projects like the ArriveCAN app, and yet they received contracts worth millions of dollars for this specific project. Can you explain, just from your point of view, what value, if any, staffing firms bring to government projects?
2:40 p.m.
As an Individual
I think you've heard testimony from several witnesses that getting qualified to access the government contracting regime is burdensome and complicated. It's not just about security screening. There are all kinds of things around intellectual property and access to buildings. It's very hard for small, individual firms to do this on their own. They go to these staffing agencies, these people who have specific skills and talent, and make themselves available to these firms that do qualify to provide these services.
The government uses these services regularly for unique skill sets. Mr. Johns has been on record that public servants should be doing this, and I agree. Quite frankly, if I had to have a recommendation around this, it would be that public servants should be doing what I would call “run”, which is maintaining the systems, patches and things like that, and the private sector should be used for bringing in innovation. That's where there's probably a shift that I think would be beneficial.
2:40 p.m.
Liberal
Jenica Atwin Liberal Fredericton, NB
Excellent. Thank you.
Mr. Barrett alluded to a potential document on ArriveCAN lessons learned. Again, in your opinion, based on your experience, even with this committee, what lessons should the CBSA have learned from the ArriveCAN project regarding the use of intermediaries like GC Strategies or in process in general?
2:40 p.m.
As an Individual
I think all the investigations and audits that are being conducted right now will yield all kinds of lessons learned for the agency to take on hand, and I'm sure they will.