Government Operations Committee on Nov. 27th, 2025

Evidence of meeting #18 for Government Operations and Estimates in the 45th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was pbo.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

Supplementary Estimates (B) 2025-26: Vote 1b under Canada School of Public Service, Vote 1b under Department of Public Works and Government Services, Vote 1b under Privy Council Office, Vote 1b under Public Service Commission, Vote 1b under Shared Services Canada and Votes 1b, 10b, 15b and 20b under Treasury Board Secretariat

Departmental Results Reports 2024-25 of the Department of Public Works and Government Services and the Treasury Board Secretariat

Members speaking

Kelly McCauley

Shafqat Ali

Pat Kelly

Marie-Hélène Gaudreau

Before the committee

Matthews Secretary of the Treasury Board of Canada, Treasury Board Secretariat

Brunelle-Côté Assistant Secretary, Expenditure Management Sector, Treasury Board Secretariat

Boyer Assistant Secretary and Chief Financial Officer, Treasury Board Secretariat

3:45 p.m.

Bill Matthews Secretary of the Treasury Board of Canada, Treasury Board Secretariat

Certainly.

The key departments involved here are the regional economic development agencies. You have the Atlantic Canada Opportunities Agency, you have PacifiCan on the west coast and you have CEDQ in Quebec, etc. Those agencies play a critical role in working together, in terms of delivering the government's agenda, to either support industries that are in need or to drive innovation. You'll see a lot of collaboration amongst those organizations, and the Department of Industry as well, to make sure we get maximum delivery and collaboration. Those organizations are the key ones.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Vince Gasparro Liberal Eglinton—Lawrence, ON

Great.

How is TBS working to align some of our new investments with Canada's innovation and productivity goals so that those investments deliver maximum impact for businesses and communities across the country?

3:45 p.m.

Secretary of the Treasury Board of Canada, Treasury Board Secretariat

Bill Matthews

With regard to the role of the Treasury Board Secretariat in this area, I would point to a couple of key policies. They're the policies around results. When there's a new program launched, there will be results defined or targets defined that actually come as part of the package to receive funding, which Parliament then votes on. Those results and measures are used to evaluate effectiveness. They're very important in terms of assessing ongoing effectiveness, even though some of these things take years to demonstrate fruition.

The other tool that we help departments with is the evaluation tool. When you have a new program, every five years or so there's an evaluation done on the results to make sure the program is getting the results intended. You will see all of that rolled up in departmental results reports that are tabled in Parliament every year around this time.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley

Thank you.

Madame Gaudreau, go ahead, please.

3:50 p.m.

Bloc

Marie-Hélène Gaudreau Bloc Laurentides—Labelle, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you for being here, Minister.

I have a lot of questions for you, but little time, so I may cut you off.

I'd like to come back to the matter of investment.

The way Quebec does things has come up a lot. Quebec separates investments. Unless I'm mistaken, this is what we're talking about, and I put the question to former Quebec finance minister Mr. Leitão earlier. We are talking about capital investment, meaning investments in equipment and infrastructure to support production. My understanding is that the capital investment is not in the form of loans or tax credits, but we will own what it supports.

This is what I'd like to understand. How things are done in Quebec and how they're done in the federal government fall into two separate categories. I asked the Parliamentary Budget Officer about what we own, and he told me that it's about 4% of all the expenditures being charged by the government.

The investment numbers suggest that everything has been lumped under that category: tax credits, loans and so on. What does the government own? Was the 4% figure the Parliamentary Budget Officer gave us wrong? The government is calling it an investment, but no, it's spending.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

Shafqat Ali Liberal Brampton—Chinguacousy Park, ON

Thank you for the important question.

What I can tell you here is the supplementary estimates is where government is seeking $10.8 billion to support a range of priorities, including dental care, equipment and training for the armed forces and first nations emergency management.

In the main estimates, over 66% of those expenses are transfers to provinces and territories.

3:50 p.m.

Bloc

Marie-Hélène Gaudreau Bloc Laurentides—Labelle, QC

Minister, we're talking about the delivery of services. It's important to tell people the truth. These are services being delivered, meaning the government has decided to make this money available, to give it to people or to lend it out. Individuals own their teeth, even if the government provides them with dental care. It's important to tell it like it is.

The Parliamentary Budget Officer told us that it's not possible to implement the budget. I was flabbergasted after hearing Mr. Leitão say he didn't agree with the information given by the Parliamentary Budget Officer.

The government is cutting 16,000 jobs. Those 16,000 people are worried, they don't have answers, and they're calling my office. We scour the information, searching for anything that can be of help. Certain numbers I can understand, but I don't have details. Can you provide evidence to the contrary?

On one hand, the Auditor General told you that you weren't able to give effect to the budget. On the other hand, the Parliamentary Budget Officer said doing so wasn't possible. Now is the time for you to show me otherwise. Convince me. A lot of people are following these proceedings right now.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

Shafqat Ali Liberal Brampton—Chinguacousy Park, ON

There are many topics there. You talked about budget 2025, and then you talked about the CER and the PBO. I don't know if we'll have enough time, but I'll try to explain as much as I can.

First, budget 2025 is a transformational budget. It lays out a clear plan to build a stronger, more resilient Canada with targeted investments that support growth, security and affordability. It proposes generational investments of $25 billion for housing and $115 billion for infrastructure. For defence and security, it is $30 billion, and for productivity and competitiveness, it is $110 billion. This will allow us to meet the moment and enable $1 trillion in total investments in Canada over the next five years.

Budget 2025 also proposes over $25 billion to support workers and businesses and introduces long-term savings through a comprehensive expenditure review with reductions beginning in 2026-27 to ensure fiscal sustainability.

Then, when we come to the comprehensive expenditure review, it will achieve $9 billion in 2026-27, $10 billion in 2027-28 and $13 billion in 2028-29 and ongoing. This will obviously include a reduction in the number of FTEs.

There's agreement with the union bargaining agreement that is in place. That would be followed and respected, and we'd do it in a way so that it has minimum impact on involuntary exits.