Government Operations Committee on Dec. 2nd, 2025

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Welcome to meeting number 19 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Government Operations and Estimates.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(3)(c), we're resuming our study of supplementary estimates (B) for the fiscal year ending March 31, 2026.

I want to thank Mr. Jacques and his team for showing up at the last moment.

Unfortunately, one of the attendees we had planned for today, Mr. Guzman, from the Defence Investment Agency, has taken ill; and Secretary Fuhr has refused to show up unless he can attend with Mr. Guzman.

Unfortunately, as well, Minister Lightbound will not show up either, as requested, so we have filled in that date on the 9th with the Transportation Safety Board, which is under the OGGO umbrella; and the Public Sector Pension Investment Board, which is also under the OGGO umbrella. We haven't seen either of them for probably five years in committee, so we're inviting them for a briefing.

Mrs. Block.

[Kelly Block, Conservative, Carlton Trail—Eagle Creek, SK]

Thank you, Chair.

I don't know if this is a point of order, but I would certainly like to register my concern with the fact that witnesses have been called to appear before committee, have agreed to come to committee, and then don't comply with the motion that's been put forward, which I believe was the case with both Mr. Guzman and Mr. Fuhr.

We had asked for them to appear separately. They decided to determine the terms under which they would come to committee; and now, at the last minute, they are not appearing. We have a member of Parliament who is serving as a minister of state refusing to come unless he's with another witness.

Can you please let us know what recourse we have for this as a committee? This is becoming a pattern of behaviour with some of the ministers. As you've mentioned, now Minister Lightbound is refusing to attend committee to defend the estimates that have been put forward. It is very concerning to this side of the table, for sure, that we have a planned agenda and can't actually go about doing the work that we, as parliamentarians, need to because of the refusal of witnesses to appear.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

I give credit to our clerk. He's been doing yeoman's work trying to arrange to have them show. There have been repeated requests to have them appear.

Mr. Guzman, I understand, is sick today, which does happen, but as for Mr. Fuhr not coming today despite the motion, I have no explanation. As chair, I am disappointed that we cannot get ministers here to defend their estimates, despite great flexibility offered long in advance.

Mr. Guzman, I'm going to assume, will show up. We can extend an invitation. If he refuses, we can go to a summons, but I'm going to assume he'll show up. As for Secretary Fuhr, it's the will of the committee how they attend. I'm a bit taken aback that he won't show up unless they are together. They've made it very clear in writing to us that they won't appear unless they can appear together for one hour only. I'm not sure why, but that's where we are right now.

[Kelly Block, Conservative, Carlton Trail—Eagle Creek, SK]

With a follow-up to that, I would encourage you, as the chair, to reissue that invitation and to recall both of them to appear, as per the motion that was passed by this entire committee and so on, to talk about the Defence Investment Agency and this new appointment. If there is still a refusal to comply with the motion that was passed at committee, then I would suggest we do need to issue a summons to Mr. Guzman and recall the Secretary of State to appear.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Ms. Gaudreau.

[Marie-Hélène Gaudreau, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

I feel the same way, Mr. Chair.

Having a health issue is a legitimate reason not to appear before the committee, and I hope everything goes well for Mr. Guzman.

Seriously, I don't want to play the summons game. I know we're being listened to. We still have a couple of meetings left. There are people who have questions and who are worried.

Please, let's respect the decisions of the committee.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Ms. Khalid.

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

When you say that the minister refused to attend today, what does that mean?

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

I'm not sure how to explain that. He will not attend without Mr. Guzman.

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

Is that a refusal to attend before the committee or is that to say, look, Mr. Guzman has had emergency surgery that is scheduled for today and we'll wait until he comes back?

When we say that there is a straight-out refusal, the implications that I'm getting from yourself and the opposite side of the table is that the minister is saying he is not coming. I don't think that that's the case.

I do want to know, were there alternative dates offered by the minister?

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

No. The message was Mr. Guzman had to be away today, and I accept that for the reason offered, and Mr. Fuhr said, no, he will not attend.

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

So....

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

The invitation has been there for a while. They stated he would be here, and then that Mr. Guzman's unavailable so Mr. Fuhr has made himself unavailable.

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

If I may, Chair, I do believe it's precedence that ministers appear with their officials for any additional information, any supplementary information, that may be required in any meeting. I don't think that ministers tend to attend on their own, and I find it a little strange that we are holding a man to account who is dealing with surgery today and then having to balance his ministry, his job, and then being accused of refusing to appear, which I don't think is accurate.

Obviously, they had scheduled in a time for them to come, and I'm pretty sure that the Secretary of State (Defence Procurement) would be more than willing to attend. Obviously, we want to make sure that his officials are able to attend with him, and if his official has had a medical emergency, then I think that we, as a committee, should be a little bit more forthcoming in terms of rescheduling a date. We don't know what the recovery process is going to be like for Mr. Guzman.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Sure, I'll just address it really quickly.

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

I'm still not....

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

I know but we're not going to filibuster here.

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

You cut me off, Chair. It's a little bit disrespectful the way you treat me in this committee.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

I'm sorry, let me...colleagues.

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

No, you know what? It's all yours, Chair, go ahead.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Colleagues, Ms. Rochefort, I am speaking so I appreciate everyone not chirping in. You are repeating the facts. There are a couple of things. Mr. Guzman is not an official like a deputy minister. Ministers have shown up without their deputy minister, and others. Minister Fuhr actually showed up in the defence committee without Mr. Guzman in tow; apparently he can show up to one committee but not us. We will re-extend invitations to try to get them both here.

We have Mr. Patzer, Ms. Jansen and Ms. Sudds. Perhaps we can get to our meeting.

[Jeremy Patzer, Conservative, Swift Current—Grasslands—Kindersley, SK]

Mr. Chair, if Mr. Guzman had a medical emergency, then obviously, first off, I would like to wish him well and hope that he has a speedy recovery. However, if this was not a medical emergency, if he had a planned surgery date, it would have been nice for the committee to have had that knowledge in advance. Maybe we could have arranged for Mr. Guzman to appear before his surgery because, to what Ms. Khalid said, we do not know what the recovery timeline and process will be for this. I do find it a little bit odd that she, all of a sudden, is the one with all the information about Mr. Guzman's schedule but that the committee has not been afforded that same luxury.

I'll also note that the motion that this committee passed was passed on October 9. I know that we passed it slightly before Mr. Guzman officially began his role, but we're now into December. He had just about a month and a half to be able to get his calendar in order, and I would think that discussing his mandate or his goals for the Defence Investment Agency would have been appropriate, especially because he is on the taxpayer for $900,000 or up to $900,000. If this is the way that we are going to be treated as a committee, that is not a good start.

I just want to register my.... The motion does not stipulate that they have to appear together. Mr. Fuhr should be appearing. It is shameful that he has decided to duck this committee; the same goes for Mr. Lightbound.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

I have Ms. Jansen and Ms. Sudds.

Colleagues, we will re-extend invites to both of them. We ask that we not repeat what has been said, but we acknowledge that we will re-invite them. We would like to get to Mr. Jacques and his team shortly.

Ms. Jansen, go ahead.

[Tamara Jansen, Conservative, Cloverdale—Langley City, BC]

I know I'm new here to this committee, but I have to say that it's beginning to feel a bit like a coordinated effort to keep Canadians in the dark while billions of dollars are being committed behind closed doors. If the people entrusted with these responsibilities believe that they can avoid scrutiny or refuse lawful orders—blocking all sorts of information, blocking the PBO's information and dodging the committees as we see—and yet still claim to be stewards of the public money, then I think they've misunderstood the job. I don't know. I'm just saying that if this government continues to treat us as an inconvenience rather than as an institution that's supposed to safeguard the public trust, Canadians will eventually draw their own conclusions about what's going on here.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Ms. Sudds, go ahead, please. Then we'll try to get Mr. Jacques and his team.