Evidence of meeting #27 for Government Operations and Estimates in the 45th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was sandbox.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Secretary of the Treasury Board of Canada, Treasury Board Secretariat
The surplus, at a point in time last year, was dealt with. Obviously, the actuary will continue to do—
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley
What is the surplus sitting at right now? Is it above what's unpermitted?
Secretary of the Treasury Board of Canada, Treasury Board Secretariat
I haven't seen a recent actuarial report, but if the pension plan continues to do as well as it was doing in previous years, we will be close.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley
The issue I have, in looking at the act, is that under “pensions” in paragraph 7.3, it says to “retain the surplus” to ensure that the plan is at a “prudent margin”. I'm just curious about paying this out. Instead of paying it out of general revenues, it seems to be kind of hidden. You need to maintain the surplus at a prudent value, but you're clearing $1.5 billion or $1.9 billion out of it for the early buyouts.
On the flip side, within the act, if there's a deficit, the deficit has to be made up by taxpayers. It also states that when it is in surplus, the government stops contributions, which means taxpayers stop contributions.
It looks to me like you are whittling down the surplus, and taxpayers are having to basically make it up. Taxpayers are on the hook for any shortage or deficit of the pension, and therefore any surplus, I would think, would go back into general revenues. It looks like you are playing fast and loose with the act in several ways.
Secretary of the Treasury Board of Canada, Treasury Board Secretariat
Do I have time for a response to that?
Conservative
Liberal
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley
I'm asking Mr. Matthews, because he's a bit more in tune with this.
Liberal
Shafqat Ali Liberal Brampton—Chinguacousy Park, ON
I didn't know whether it was a question or a statement by you. I just wanted to get clarity.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley
It's both. I'm trying to figure out how it's justified and how it fits in with 7.3, which says we should maintain or retain a surplus in the plan as a prudent margin, and how we justify paying the early buyout costs out of the pension when any deficit has to be made up by taxpayers. The flip side is that the surplus generally belongs to taxpayers. The government—and therefore taxpayers—when it's in surplus, doesn't make contributions to it, so it looks like this could reduce the surplus and eliminate the government from ending its contributions.
Do you see what I mean? I'm sure Mr. Matthew does.
Secretary of the Treasury Board of Canada, Treasury Board Secretariat
I have two very quick points here, Mr. Chair.
Number one, when there was a non-permitted surplus above the 125%, it did indeed go back into the CRF, as we've discussed. Just remember, though, that this pension plan is made up of investment income, obviously, that the plan has earned, but also contributions from both the employer—or, as the chair said, taxpayers—and employees. That fund is jointly funded.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley
If it's in deficit, the employees don't make it up; the taxpayers do.
Liberal
Leslie Church Liberal Toronto—St. Paul's, ON
I have a point of order.
Mr. Chair, I appreciate the fact that I'm new to this committee, but my understanding is that if the chair wants to ask questions, he would take the time from a member of his caucus.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley
We are done, actually. This is just the chair's prerogative to ask questions. Thanks.
Go ahead, Mr. Matthews.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley
No. There are no more rounds for members. I'm just using the chair's prerogative to ask a couple of questions at the end before we suspend. We do this quite commonly in all committees.
Just finish up, Mr. Matthews.
Secretary of the Treasury Board of Canada, Treasury Board Secretariat
There was a point in time when the plan was in deficit and it indeed got funded by the government. Then, equally, when the plan was recently in a surplus position above the authorized amount, that went back into the CRF. You have seen it move both ways, but the key point here is that the pension plan itself is jointly funded by employer and employee.
February 12th, 2026 / 12:05 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley
As in a lot of things, I think we'll agree to disagree.
Anyway, we're going to suspend briefly. We'll say goodbye to our guests, and then we'll bring back a couple of folks who will go over our submissions process for the Bill C-15 recommendations and possible amendments.
We'll suspend briefly.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley
Good afternoon, everyone. We are back.
Quickly, I want to go through our timelines for our recommendations for Bill C-15.
On February 18, which is during the break week, the analysts are going to distribute a summary of the evidence and recommendations based on our first three meetings. It won't include Canada Post, but it will include everything up to today on Bill C-15.
We're asking members to submit their proposed recommendations to the clerk by noon on the 20th. Again, that's for what we've heard up to today, not including Canada Post. On the 23rd, the analysts will return the recommendations.
On the 24th, we'll have Canada Post here. I think a lot was covered by Minister Lightbound, but Canada Post will be here anyway. Then we're asking to have, at 2 p.m. on the 25th, the second tranche of proposed recommendations that we're going to send back to the finance committee regarding Canada Post.
On the 18th, we'll have a summary from the analysts. They've put together some recommendations from what we've heard. You can provide them to the clerk on the 20th by noon. On the 23rd, the analysts will send that out.
On the 24th, we'll have Canada Post. It's just the one meeting for one hour. Then you can have your recommendations in by 2 p.m. on the 25th. On the 26th, the analysts will provide a summary of evidence from Canada Post. Then we have to collate everything, and on the 27th we're going to send our letter to FINA.
As I mentioned, if we can agree on a recommendation, we'll send that. If we can't agree, we'll have a recommendation where the Conservatives recommend this, the Bloc recommends this and the Liberals recommend this, or the Bloc recommends this and the Conservatives and the Liberals recommend that.
The complicated thing is that if you want to do an amendment, it can't be done out of our committee, because we cannot force our will on other committees, although we should be able to because we are OGGO.
We have two special guests with us. Ms. Winters and Ms. Legault will now explain the process, if you wish to attend the finance committee and present an amendment to Bill C-15, whether that's on section 5, Canada Post or anything else.
I will turn the floor over. It will be brief.
If you have questions, just throw out questions. Direct them to Ms. Legault and Ms. Winters.
Michelle Legault Legislative Clerk
Thank you, Mr. McCauley.
As is the case with any legislation, any member is able to submit an amendment directly to the finance committee. If you would like to do that, I believe Marc-Olivier has circulated Isabelle D'Souza's information. She's the legislative counsel who's assigned to Bill C-15. You can reach out to her directly with your drafting instructions. There is a template available on Source under “Quick Help” in the “Drafting Amendments” section. Otherwise, we can have that sent to you through Marc-Olivier. The template will help you structure your drafting instructions to send to Isabelle.
Once Isabelle has your amendments, she will send them back to you. Then it is your responsibility to send them directly to the finance committee for them to be considered officially submitted. Send them to fina@parl.gc.ca.
Once they're submitted to the finance committee—again, any member can submit—you need to be either a member of the finance committee or substituted on the committee in order to move them. Then it will be up to you, within your caucuses, to organize whether you will be present yourself and substituted to move them during the committee or whether you'll arrange for one of your colleagues on the committee to move them for you.
Are there any questions?
Conservative
Kelly Block Conservative Carlton Trail—Eagle Creek, SK
If we work with Isabelle and want to put forward an amendment and it is in our name, we don't have to be at the finance committee in order for it to be moved. Another member of the finance committee, a permanent member perhaps, can go ahead and do that.
