Evidence of meeting #34 for Government Operations and Estimates in the 45th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was cuts.
A video is available from Parliament.
Liberal
National President, Union of Canadian Correctional Officers
It went fast, yes.
No, there wasn't much. As I mentioned to Mr. Gasparro, we were talking about the EAP, but it was not that much.
Bloc
Marie-Hélène Gaudreau Bloc Laurentides—Labelle, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Let me know when I get worked up. I'll move my microphone back. It's important, because your hearing health is important.
I will now turn to the representatives of the Public Service Alliance of Canada.
What is happening is quite worrisome. Also, you should know that we are also very concerned about the services available to veterans. We're obviously going to try to get to the bottom of this.
The CBSA sent out 447 letters telling people to watch out, that the door is wide open and that anyone who wants to negotiate their exit can do so, maybe not like the president and CEO of Air Canada.
Perhaps there will be a lack of knowledge and skills at some point, and former employees will be brought back as contract employees.
Could that happen?
National President, Public Service Alliance of Canada
I think that anything is possible. What we can tell you is what we've seen many times. When services are cut and the need is still there, the government does one of two things: It contracts out or it starts hiring up again. We've seen this with the compensation advisers when they decided to launch Phoenix.
By the way, Phoenix was an IBM creation. What ended up happening? It was failing and they tried to hire everyone up, but people had left to go to other jobs, so they looked at other band-aid solutions.
I just want to bring your attention to something else. IBM received another contract. In fact, that contract was to assist with old age security and Cúram, if you've ever heard of that. Eighty-five thousand seniors did not get paid accurately or on time. You would think that after Phoenix, we would have learned our lesson on contracting out. Well, guess what. To rub salt in the wound, can you imagine people who have lost their spouse receiving cheques for their deceased spouse?
Let's talk about what happens when you don't get properly paid on time. That means you're dependent on that cheque and you have to look at an alternative source of income. What does that mean? It means going to food banks. The emotional turmoil we see from the impact of contracting out is unbelievable. Who, at the end of the day, is responsible?
That's the problem with all these cuts, the use of AI and the implementation of contracting out this work. It just ends up costing the government more money. Phoenix is $5 billion. We're doing this analysis right now, but let's talk about three, five, eight and 10 years. What is this going to cost us? Cost savings doesn't work in this manner.
When we're looking at all of this, I just want to point out that it's the most vulnerable in our society who get hit the hardest. It seems like the government priorities shift, change and become something else, and they are forgotten.
Bloc
Marie-Hélène Gaudreau Bloc Laurentides—Labelle, QC
Thank you for providing us with that information.
In my riding of Laurentides—Labelle, in Quebec, when someone overstates by a few million dollars, in a recent scandal that shall go unnamed, it becomes an issue. Here, the amounts are five, 10 or 15 times higher. It's billions of dollars. We hear that it's part of the culture. Oh, come on. Is anyone going to wake up at some point? We're talking about $130 million for correctional services, for officers. We're told that cuts are being made because we have priorities. Oh, come on. When will we take the bull by the horns and grow a backbone to make real decisions? There will be more scandals.
I hate to say things like that. Often when I say things, they happen. There was an earthquake today. I talked about it, and then it happened. I don't want that to happen, okay?
Are we going to wait until there is a murder, an incident or an escape? I'm telling you, and so are they. It's coming. There are around 10 institutions that are obsolete and antiquated. Let's wake up.
Thank you.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley
Thank you, Madame Gaudreau.
It's Mrs. Jansen, and then we'll go to Ms. Khalid.
Conservative
Tamara Jansen Conservative Cloverdale—Langley City, BC
Thank you.
I'm going to direct my questions to Mr. MacKinnon.
Last summer, I had the opportunity to visit the Matsqui penitentiary with my colleague Mr. Caputo. It became very clear that there was a problem there. They've already had multiple incidents of contraband being literally thrown over the fence. It wasn't smuggled in some sophisticated way. They just tossed it over like it was a backyard. We're talking about packages landing inside the perimeter containing drugs, cellphones and even weapons. It got so bad that they had to build a second fence to try to stop it. You would have to throw it harder to get it into the yard. A second fence was their solution. From what the officers are saying, it's not exactly Fort Knox. People are still finding ways around it because fences don't stop the problem. People do. Dog units do. Patrols do. Experienced correctional officers do.
What's the government's big idea with this cutting? Are they going to cut searches? Are they going to reduce patrols and the very things that catch this stuff before it spreads through the institution?
Here's the part that should concern every Canadian: When this contraband gets inside, it doesn't just sit there. It fuels violence. It creates debt. It drives intimidation. The people standing in the middle of that storm are correctional officers. These men and women are already dealing with some of the highest PTSD rates in the country, and now we're making their job harder.
If they already can't stop drugs and weapons from getting over the fence, what exactly is the plan when they start removing the people responsible for catching this stuff once it's in?
Second National Vice-President, Union of Canadian Correctional Officers
I think CSC wants to rely on technology. They want to rely on drone detection. They want to rely on perimeter security. We're finding that the inmates are catching up with the technology faster than we can implement it. Therefore, it's becoming obsolete.
Of course, the solution to that, for us, is boots on the ground. You talked about drug-detecting dogs. Their footprint in the institution is being reduced, as well as mobile patrols outside the institution. Inmates are reverting to the throw-over method again, which went away for a little while with the introduction of drones. Now we're getting it in both drones and throw-overs. We need the staff and the correctional officers on the ground to intervene in those instances.
Conservative
Tamara Jansen Conservative Cloverdale—Langley City, BC
When we visited, employee morale was at a maximum low. We heard that when they finally have downtime, they go online to look for another job.
Admin is putting policies in place that put their lives at risk. I remember that one of the places we went to allowed a mixed-range lunch so everybody could socialize. They said that this, immensely, put much more risk on the officers. I was honestly really shocked by the wilful blindness of admin putting lives at risk like this. I feel like this is just another one of those things.
Can you please let me know if this is the same thing?
Second National Vice-President, Union of Canadian Correctional Officers
I think you're talking about the reintroduction of the meal line for inmates. Of course, allowing large gatherings like that—which haven't happened for many years—increases the risk to officers. When you bring, sometimes, hundreds of inmates into gatherings like that, it increases the risk of incidents. It allows for the passing of contraband. Overall, the risk to correctional officers rises.
Conservative
Tamara Jansen Conservative Cloverdale—Langley City, BC
Yes, they were very clear. They said that it distracts them because they have too many people to watch. Someone can distract them over here while someone else attacks another over there.
They wilfully continued that practice—I don't know where it's at now. I was shocked to see admin ignoring it and shocked to see the low morale of the staff. Having less staff, I would imagine, makes it even worse.
Second National Vice-President, Union of Canadian Correctional Officers
For us, morale is a big issue. We talk about accountability within the walls of the institution for the inmates who live there. When they're not being held to account, it's very easy for morale to drop among correctional officers because they don't feel supported by the management group. They feel they're working against the grain.
Conservative
Conservative
Liberal
Iqra Khalid Liberal Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON
Thank you, Chair.
Just quickly, before I get into it, Ms. DeSousa, in your remarks just now, you talked about some 440 letters of termination that had been sent to frontline officers. Can you please help us understand? My understanding from Public Safety and from TBS is that this is not accurate and that no frontline officer has received any such letter.
National President, Public Service Alliance of Canada
Thank you. I can tell you that in terms of 447 letters, there is a mix of different occupations, and I can tell you that there are border services officers who did in fact receive letters, because I received them personally. They're required by law, by our collective agreement, to give us notice.
Liberal
Iqra Khalid Liberal Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON
Thank you. I appreciate that.
There is a difference here between who is a frontline officer and who is admin staff, regardless of the department that they are working in. Is that correct?
Liberal
Iqra Khalid Liberal Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON
Thank you.
In your opening remarks, you talked about public servants receiving letters, and I'm just wanting to be correct. The way that I understood it, you implied that these letters were terminating their employment. My understanding is that they were given options. I just want to go over the options so that Canadians can understand exactly what public servants were provided with.
Option A is that the employee remains employed and continues to be paid while receiving priority consideration for available jobs for up to 12 months. Option B is a transition support measure where the employee leaves the public service and receives a lump sum payment based on their years of service. Option C, part one, is an education allowance with a transition support measure where the employee leaves the public service but receives financial support to pursue educational studies. Option C, part two, is education leave without pay, where the employee receives financial support and an education allowance for tuition and can take up to two years of leave without pay. At the end of that leave period, the employee is laid off but receives priority consideration for available jobs for up to 12 months.
Can you confirm whether this framework was something that the government imposed on its own, or was it actually negotiated between government officials and bargaining agents?
National President, Public Service Alliance of Canada
What you've read out is further in the workforce adjustment process. We're at the beginning right now, where the notifications have been sent out. The process is outlined in our collective agreements that have been negotiated.
Liberal
Iqra Khalid Liberal Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON
I understand that. I'm just trying to understand how these options were compiled and put together in the first place. I'm wondering if bargaining agencies had any say in this, or did the government just come up with it on its own?
National President, Public Service Alliance of Canada
I'm going to do a little bit of a history—God help us all. Under the Chrétien government, when we got hit the hardest, this is something we actually negotiated in our collective agreements, because the process in which people were terminated wasn't fair or transparent. For us, it was important to actually negotiate something that was clear, so this actual article in our collective agreement has evolved over very many years.
Liberal
Iqra Khalid Liberal Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON
It is something that was put together between all the different parties involved. It's not just something that the government has come up with on its own. Thank you for that.
I'm going to move really quickly. I understand I'm really short on time. You had mentioned about CPP, OAS and EI and all of that. They're all supported by statutory funding, which means that the benefits will always be paid. They will be paid out. These are services that Canadians who have worked, contributed to their communities and contributed to Canada really rely on, and our government, I hope, is prioritizing and protecting these services.
It's my understanding that the public servants who process these claims will not be impacted by any of the cuts, as the operating funds for administering these programs are also statutory.
Are you aware of how many public servants work to administer these vital benefits? As Canadians continue to age, I can assume that we'll need more and more of these individuals working in these programs, so I would assume that we are likely to have that increase.
