Government Operations Committee on April 14th, 2026

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Thanks, gentlemen. I apologize for cutting you off early, Mr. Caputo. We made up for it by allowing you extra time.

Mr. Gasparro, go ahead, please, for six minutes.

[Vince Gasparro, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you all for your service.

My questions will be directed primarily to you, Mr. MacKinnon and Mr. Lebeau.

As the parliamentary secretary for combatting crime, I've had the opportunity to visit the Bath correctional institution, just outside of Kingston, meet with its leadership team and see first-hand the important work our correctional officers do every day and the risk they—and you—put themselves in. Frankly, I learned about some of the challenges encountered by the officers, including outdated digital tools and challenges with upgrading physical infrastructure within the buildings. Our new government is taking strides to address these two concerns specifically.

How do you see improvements in these domains helping correctional officers do their jobs?

[Frédérick Lebeau]

You probably visited unit two in Bath. That was supposed to be just a short-term location for a couple of months. It's been many years. It's aging infrastructure. It's dangerous to hold inmates over there.

Yes, we need to invest massively. This government needs to invest massively in infrastructure. We had our new commissioner testify on the supplementary estimates a couple of weeks ago, and he stated the same thing. It's very important because of the aging infrastructure. We need more money, for sure.

[Vince Gasparro, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

If I recall correctly, the “temporary” facility was from the late nineties, so there have been successive governments that have allowed that structure to remain. Is my memory correct?

I'm not going to put you on the spot. I was there as well, and I can't remember the exact date.

[Frédérick Lebeau]

I don't have the exact date, but it's been a while. I think it's more than 30 years.

[Vince Gasparro, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

That's correct. That was my understanding. You've had successive governments under both parties since then that have allowed that structure to remain. Thank you for that. I appreciate it.

In regard to unfortunate but sometimes necessary reductions in the workforce, can you advise on what steps can be taken to support employees affected by reductions in expenditures?

[Frédérick Lebeau]

Let's take the example of the mobile patrol. It's a good example. The government and the CSC want to reduce on weekdays for the mobile patrol. For sure it's going to create some dangerous situations, because those mobile patrols are there with drone-answering protocols. They are there to intercept visitors who cannot be on the premises of the institution. At the end of the day, it's creating more work. It's creating more places and gaps where the criminal will be able to try to introduce contraband and try to fill that gap with contraband.

[Vince Gasparro, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

Thank you.

How can Correctional Service Canada or other government agencies support employees' career transitions or next steps in their careers?

[Frédérick Lebeau]

I think it's pretty minimal, to be honest with you. Just take the example of the 15 FTEs that we have in Grierson. Middle managers met with them. They had to make a decision very rapidly. They had a month to make their decision as to what they would do afterwards. The transition of career is pretty non-existent with the offer from the EAP. It's a very minimal transition. There are not a lot of services, to be honest with you, sir.

[Vince Gasparro, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

Thank you.

This is probably for you, Ms. DeSousa, but anyone can feel free to answer.

Departments have said that services to Canadians will not be impacted by the CER cuts. Frontline workers who work to protect Canadians, our borders and our sovereignty around the clock like CBSA, RCMP and the Canadian Armed Forces have a separate early retirement initiative that's referred to as 25 and out.

In your capacity as president of PSAC, have you seen examples where Canadians and their essential services will be put at risk due to the CER reductions?

[Sharon DeSousa]

Yes, without a doubt. Currently, we have notification that Canada Border Services Agency has provided roughly—and I'm just looking at the number right here—447 workers with affected letters. That means workers who are doing administrative work and border service officers, and some of them even report to Ottawa. This agency hasn't been staffed up, and we're talking about since its inception. It's doing the best it can with the most minimum amount of oversight and structure, and putting money to electronic devices such as drones isn't going to help. You need to have the boots on the ground and the infrastructure within the actual agency.

When we're looking at this, there has been no consultation. The people on the ground actually know what the hell they're doing—excuse my language. Why aren't we looking to them instead of looking at expensive toys that may or may not work?

[Vince Gasparro, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

It's interesting, though, Ms. DeSousa. We had the treasury board here. We've had other departments here saying that there aren't any cuts to frontline services when it comes to CBSA, the Canadian Armed Forces and those within our national security apparatus, so I'm a little confused how your position can be that there are impacts to frontline services when everyone else is saying there aren't.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Ms. DeSousa, we are past our time, but perhaps we can get to that in one of our next interventions.

Madame Gaudreau, please go ahead.

[Marie-Hélène Gaudreau, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I really don’t have enough time, but I think my remarks might perhaps make you want to come and see for yourselves.

Two weeks ago, I went to La Macaza prison, which is in my constituency. It was my fourth visit. Honestly, I was stunned. Speak to Mr. Dominic LeBlanc. He has experienced the 3D simulations of what goes on there. So, if you’ve never been to a prison or a correctional facility, I invite you to experience it. I spent hours there. What I realized is that…. Well, there’s no way.

Here is my simple question. Do you feel safe in your workplace?

[Frédérick Lebeau]

It’s very difficult. When a prison officer is assaulted every day in a prison or in one region or another, it leaves its mark. It’s very dangerous. Every day, we know what time we start work, but we don’t know what time we’ll finish. We wonder if there will be a staff shortage, if there will be a drone, if we’ll have to seize weapons, if there will be contraband. It really is a very challenging environment. These days, it’s very difficult.

[Marie-Hélène Gaudreau, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

What about overtime? Is protective equipment up to date?

We also discussed bladed weapons. We agree that if they get into the institution, there will be problems. As for La Macaza Institution, I invite you to go there. It’s a two-hour drive from here, and it’s open-air. It’s a medium-security facility where there is a degree of freedom. I would like to pay tribute to all the prison officers at this facility, who gave me the opportunity to visit it and see the security arrangements for myself.

Are you up to date in terms of equipment, cameras, communications and perimeter security?

[Frédérick Lebeau]

Absolutely not. We are more like in an episode of the 1980s series Stranger Things. That is roughly the level of technology found in our prisons. We need to invest heavily in radios, communications and drone systems. We fight organized crime every day; that is what we do.

Criminals enter prison and continue their criminal activities throughout their incarceration. We need to recognize that it is important to invest more heavily and to upgrade the infrastructure.

[Marie-Hélène Gaudreau, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

Rest assured that we hear what you're saying and we see it.

I actually went there with a spokesperson, Mrs. DeBellefeuille. One of the things she did was meet with officers at the Drummondville penitentiary, where, in practice, there is the highest rate of overtime, which is a sign. We won't get into new recruits.

What I want to talk about is public safety. You're told that you're risking your life, but that 7,500 officers is fine. However, this is about public safety, everyone's safety.

[Frédérick Lebeau]

You're right. Many institutions in our country are located in our communities. They're close to our schools and homes. Therefore, their lack of security poses risks, not only for correctional officers, but also for the general public, for Canadians across the country.

[Marie-Hélène Gaudreau, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

In any case, I can tell you that, when I walked around the penitentiary for hours and saw that psychologists, people who were there for support, didn't even have the protective equipment that we parliamentarians have when we go shopping and can press a panic button, I couldn't get over it. These people are inside the institution, in cells, with inmates. My goodness, what is going on?

You have to go to the La Macaza Institution. It's a former Cold War base. We can all agree that it's pretty obsolete. In addition, there is double bunking. What happens when two inmates are put in the same cell?

[Frédérick Lebeau]

Managing two inmates in a cell that is already pretty small to begin with is even more complicated. That also complicates the searches that need to be done. It's really demanding and challenging at the same time. In short, it's really challenging to manage.

[Marie-Hélène Gaudreau, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

If you don't know when or how drones containing drugs and knives will show up, and on top of that you can detect little to nothing, not to mention that your detection resource is available only occasionally, what will the impact be?

Do you have to become sniffer dogs? It makes no sense.

[Frédérick Lebeau]

What's also important to understand is that the failure of Correctional Services's mission as well as inmate rehabilitation leads to an increase in crime. Rising crime affects every citizen. These issues are important, hence the importance of holding meetings like the one we're having with all of you to raise your awareness, because we work in a secure unit.

When crime goes up, violence goes up and double-bunking goes up.

[Marie-Hélène Gaudreau, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

Mr. Chair, I don't have any time left.

Mr. Lebeau, I would like you to send us a report with all the details. I spent four hours at that facility. We need more information. We will also ask people to come and see the situation for themselves as much as possible.

An hour ago, we were talking about defence investments. Then we find out that you're not protected. Apparently, we choose our priorities, and it is obvious that you are not among them. Cuts of over $130 million are unacceptable. There should be a $130-million investment.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Thank you.

Mr. Patzer, you have five minutes.