Government Operations Committee on April 21st, 2026

[Kelly Block, Conservative, Carlton Trail—Eagle Creek, SK]

Why are you waiting until 2028-29?

[Cliff Groen]

Under the comprehensive expenditure review, it's a three-year implementation. We have specific targets for each year to obtain reductions. The reductions have to be fully realized by the third year. This is the first year of the CER measures. The reductions have to be fully realized by 2028-29. It would be no later than 2028-29, but the vast majority would certainly be achieved prior to that timeline.

[Kelly Block, Conservative, Carlton Trail—Eagle Creek, SK]

Can you tell this committee what the lowest executive-level employee earns without a bonus?

[Cliff Groen]

EX-01 is the lowest executive level. Off the top of my head, I'm not absolutely familiar with the exact executive pay range. It is readily available online. I'm not sure if Danielle has a specific number. I believe it's in the neighbourhood of $150,000, but we can certainly verify that information.

[Kelly Block, Conservative, Carlton Trail—Eagle Creek, SK]

The bonus is around $17,000. Based on information that we reviewed, you have 834 total executives listed at ESDC. Only four of those did not receive the at-risk pay, which is, in my understanding, actually a bonus of $17,000.

I'm trying to understand this. You're reducing your executives by 100 executive positions. We've been told by other departments—and I think the narrative continues—that we can reduce our numbers and it's not going to impact the service. If those positions aren't needed, you can eliminate them.

Why are all of them receiving a bonus of, on average, $17,000, on top of a six-figure salary?

[Cliff Groen]

There are a couple of pieces for clarification, which I think would help you understand the dynamics.

It would not be appropriate to characterize the $17,000 as a bonus. It is correctly understood as at-risk pay. There's a certain percentage of executive pay that is at risk. It is part of the salary, but it is at risk. It's based on performance and meeting performance objectives—

[Kelly Block, Conservative, Carlton Trail—Eagle Creek, SK]

I'm going to interrupt you there. Looking at an actual document, which is “Results of the Performance Management Program for Executives for 2024-2025” at Canada.ca, at-risk pay as defined on that page is a performance-awarded bonus.

[Cliff Groen]

Within the executive compensation scheme for the public service, there are five different performance ratings that individuals can receive, ranging from “did not meet” to “succeeded-minus”, “succeeded”, “succeeded-plus” and “surpassed”.

Individuals who rate between succeeded-minus and succeeded-plus are entitled to performance pay, which is part of their at-risk pay. Only people who receive a performance rating of surpassed—a five out of five rating—would receive a bonus.

[Kelly Block, Conservative, Carlton Trail—Eagle Creek, SK]

That's extra pay.

[Cliff Groen]

Yes, that's part of the executive compensation scheme. I would also highlight a couple of other points to address your question.

The reduction we are seeing in our executive workforce equates to 12% of our current executive workforce. We have definitely put greater focus on reductions at the management levels rather than at the officer level. The non-executive reduction—

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

I have to cut you off there. We're a bit past our time.

Ms. Khalid, go ahead, please.

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

Thank you very much, Chair. Through you, I thank the witnesses for being here today and for sharing their valuable knowledge.

I want to pivot. As we're talking about executives, I want to talk about what's happening at the front lines. Millions of Canadians are relying on the services that Service Canada provides, whether it's passports, employment insurance, old age security or so many other programs.

How do you reconcile cuts and job cuts with service delivery? Can you provide us with reassurances that Canadians are going to continue to get the proper service delivery they require, with everything Service Canada has to offer?

[Cliff Groen]

As we were looking at the objectives related to the expenditure review reductions, we certainly placed top priority on ensuring the continued and ongoing delivery of services to Canadians. That is absolutely a key, top priority for our organization.

Many of our programs are, in fact, not part of the expenditure review reduction targets—specifically, these are programs for which there is a separate financial account. Whether it be the employment insurance program, the Canada pension plan or partnerships we deliver for other government departments, such as for passports or the Canadian dental care plan, none of those programs or the delivery of those services was part of the expenditure review. There has not been any reduction of those services as a result of the comprehensive expenditure review.

For the programs that are not part of separate accounts, we similarly ensure the ongoing delivery of frontline services to Canadians. As a result of the CER and the reduction targets that we have, there have not been any reductions related to the service to Canadians.

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

As members of Parliament, we are all hearing that there are current backlogs and delays in service. How do you reconcile that?

[Cliff Groen]

Certainly, being responsible for a very large organization in which we deliver and interact with millions of Canadians, we know some service delivery challenges will occur. We answer about 250,000 calls from Canadians every week, so millions of Canadians every month are relying on our products and services. I am very proud to report that we achieve the vast majority of our service standards. We continue to find ways to try to maximize how we can most effectively deliver our services. As part of the expenditure review reductions, finding ways in which we can be more efficient is absolutely a big priority for us. This includes further advancing digital online adoption and leveraging new technologies. We have started using artificial intelligence to help us become more efficient. There's a myriad of other things we're driving to make us more efficient.

Protecting the ongoing delivery is absolutely the top priority we have. While I would love to say that every single interaction we have with the millions of Canadians is perfect and that not a single client will see a delay, unfortunately, that's not possible. However, we meet the vast majority of service standards.

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

I appreciate that.

I come from an urban neighbourhood. However, I'm starting to understand a lot more of the challenges rural communities are going through. How are you looking to improve the services we provide to rural communities, especially with physical offices and making sure that those offices are staffed as well?

You were talking about artificial intelligence. Is artificial intelligence the replacement for these 930-some jobs you're cutting?

[Cliff Groen]

First, I'll answer your question related to rural service delivery. Through Service Canada, we have 317 in-person offices spread throughout the country. We provide an additional 300 outreach services, in which we go to different communities on a scheduled basis. We absolutely know and recognize that delivery of services in person for Canadians spread throughout the country is a top priority. There is no reduction of our in-person services, in all the rural communities across the country, being contemplated as part of the expenditure review.

Regarding the measures we have implemented related to artificial intelligence, it is geared toward focusing on our becoming more efficient. I'll give you one example of an AI tool we have used. We're leveraging AI to help our officers find information more quickly. We have vast amounts of guidance and direction for our staff to understand the rules and legislation associated with the program. Traditionally, agents would have trouble finding large guidance tools. Now we use AI to help bring that information to our officers more quickly so that they are able to answer questions from clients.

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

How are you transitioning? What does the process look like between modernizing your digital services from paper—for example, faxing?

I'm not sure if people still know what faxing is.

[Voices]

Oh, oh!

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

How are you transitioning on that?

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

I'm sorry. We're past the time. Give a brief answer, if you're able to.

[Cliff Groen]

Sure.

There is a big transition that we need to undertake related to driving toward more digital. We have very dedicated change management strategies—in particular, to help our staff and then our clients to adapt to the new way of working.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Go ahead, Madame Gaudreau.

[Marie-Hélène Gaudreau, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I have the impression that we are going to experience what we have already experienced in Quebec. Some of you may not know this, but there was massive attrition between 1998 and 2000. I know so many people—including nurses and teachers—and I can tell you that the collateral damage was very severe. After five, ten….

Is the interpretation working? It seems so. It’s important that you hear the interpretation. The interpreters do such good work.

In short, I feel like we’ve already squeezed the lemon dry, and now they’re trying to make us believe that we’re not making a change to the role of the state. We’re always talking about cuts, digitization, outsourcing to the private sector, or centralization. Yet when I go back home to my district, I see that there are still municipalities without access to fibre optics and people without cellphones. What do they do? They come knocking on my door, especially on Fridays because they know I’m there, and they tell me they can’t get the services they need. A member’s office can therefore become a Service Canada branch.

How can we do things better and do more with far fewer resources? What is this secret formula I’m not aware of?

[Cliff Groen]

For us, it is absolutely essential to ensure that we are there for all Canadians, and especially for the most vulnerable Canadians. In fact, that is precisely part of our mandate.

I know that many citizens are very comfortable using the Internet and would like to do things online. I am one of those people. I don’t like having to wait in line at a Service Canada office to apply for a passport, for example. If we can do something like that online, that suits me just fine, and it suits a great many people in our society as well. In fact, that is why renewing a passport for an adult Canadian can now be done online.

However, I also know that there are other Canadians who are not comfortable using computers and do not fully understand how to do so. That is why we have made a commitment to maintain our service points across Canada. More than 96% of the population lives within 50 kilometres of a Service Canada office, and we intend to keep it that way. We are here for Canadians, especially the most vulnerable among them. Furthermore, we know that in some parts of Canada, broadband Internet service is not available. It is therefore very important for us to maintain these service points.