Evidence of meeting #38 for Government Operations and Estimates in the 45th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was communications.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

Members speaking

Before the committee

Shea  Chief Financial Officer, Privy Council Office
Baird  Vice President, Major Projects Office, Privy Council Office
Côté  Professor, As an Individual
Ryan  Parliamentary Budget Officer, Office of the Parliamentary Budget Officer
Jacques  Director General, Economic and Fiscal Analysis, Office of the Parliamentary Budget Officer

11:30 a.m.

Vice President, Major Projects Office, Privy Council Office

Louise Baird

Projects come to us, from wherever in the country, through the project proponents. We have an application spot on our website, where people can submit their applications. They are sometimes from the project proponents. Sometimes they're from indigenous groups or indigenous proponents who have an interest in the project. We certainly have conversations with our colleagues in Intergovernmental Affairs. Provinces sometimes provide their priorities, when it comes to projects, and part of our work does include engagement with provinces and territories. We get that different representation and input from those different places.

Pauline Rochefort Liberal Nipissing—Timiskaming, ON

Thank you very much. I appreciate that.

Thank you.

11:35 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley

Thanks, Ms. Rochefort.

We'll go to Madame Gaudreau for two and a half minutes.

Marie-Hélène Gaudreau Bloc Laurentides—Labelle, QC

I'll be quick.

First, Mr. Chair, I would like to remind you that we asked the deputy minister to give us the rules that define a government slogan versus a slogan used in an election campaign. We received a response two or three weeks later, and I checked. Seriously, let's face it. Changing a comma or a word after “Canada strong” is a stretch. I suspect that the communications team was instructed to use this as a template and to come up with a convoluted way to comply with the rules. That's what happened during the election campaign. I think that this is the message that sticks in people's minds. Just ask a neurolinguistic programming expert or marketing professionals. The rule should be reassessed because the message was clear. There was an onslaught of messages that could influence future voters to think “Canada strong”. I'm absolutely flabbergasted.

I would like to talk about major projects. We've asked many questions and we haven't received any answers. I want to know who will sit on the board of directors and about the decision‑making process. As a person responsible for the second opposition party, I want to ensure that the process is ethical and thorough. I'm worried that one project will be arbitrarily chosen over another. We've often seen Quebec get sidelined. So please give me all the reassurance that I need, because I'm really worried.

11:35 a.m.

Vice President, Major Projects Office, Privy Council Office

Louise Baird

Any project referred to us is referred from the government. We look at the applications we receive through the website that I mentioned. There's some assessment against the five factors in the act to see if they would be suitable, if they're at the right stage or if they would benefit from the services that MPO provides. Then we would provide a recommendation to the government. It's the government's decision whether or not to refer a project to the Major Projects Office.

Marie-Hélène Gaudreau Bloc Laurentides—Labelle, QC

A summary assessment takes place first. However, the government still has the final say.

April 30th, 2026 / 11:35 a.m.

Vice President, Major Projects Office, Privy Council Office

Marie-Hélène Gaudreau Bloc Laurentides—Labelle, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

11:35 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley

Thank you very much.

We'll say thank you to Mr. Shea and his team for being with us. Hopefully, it won't be two years before we see you back, although I'm sure you wish it were longer.

We will suspend for a few minutes.

11:40 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley

Welcome back, and thank you for your patience.

We welcome Professor Côté to OGGO.

I understand you have a five-minute opening statement.

The floor is yours. Please go ahead.

Louis Côté Professor, As an Individual

I would like to say a few words to clarify the nature of my remarks.

I'm a professor at the École nationale d'administration publique. I've been interested in the evolution of state governance and administrative reforms for over 40 years. I've been monitoring developments in Quebec and carrying out empirical research on the topic. I've also done this abroad. I ran a centre for monitoring and comparative analysis at the international level. I have taught or consulted in around 30 member countries of the Organisation internationale de la Francophonie.

If you ask a politician to say a few hard‑hitting lines in 30 seconds, they'll manage quite well. I believe that it's their job. However, if you ask a professor to explain a somewhat complex issue in five minutes, it goes against their nature. I'll try anyway.

I'll start by pointing out that the issue under consideration right now has been around for half a century. It didn't start yesterday. Specifically, it has existed since the mid‑1970s, when governments were faced with a major structural economic crisis. Some neoliberals advocated for the withdrawal of the state. They believed that limiting government intervention would solve the crisis. We saw this in the United States and Great Britain, under Margaret Thatcher.

The plan was to deregulate the financial markets and labour market, privatize, increase subcontracting, cut social programs, and, of course, lower taxes to ensure that the government wouldn't recover those funds and start spending again. However, against the backdrop of globalization, this affected nearly all industrialized countries. These countries faced deindustrialization, falling real wages, increasingly precarious employment, diminished social protections, rising inequality, deteriorating infrastructure and the decline of public services.

However, the Anglo‑American model wasn't adopted everywhere. In the Nordic countries, for example, governments have continued to support the development of the national economy and to provide a high level of social protection. Today, the Scandinavian countries continue to lead the pack in terms of gross domestic product per capita, quality of life, health, education and even happiness. There are now happiness indexes. So it seems that this approach can work.

At the international level, the neoliberal discourse has also done a great deal of damage in developing countries. They were advised to withdraw the state and to let the markets run wild. They were told that everything would work itself out. We saw that the major—or even minor—emerging countries, the tigers and dragons, didn't take off that way at first. On the contrary, these countries' economies took off as a result of government intervention by a strategic rather than a reactive government.

The fact remains that, for the past 50 years, all countries have been grappling with financial and budgetary challenges. That much is clear. It's also clear that people's expectations are much higher and that many more challenges and collective players are involved both at home and abroad. So governments are grappling with all this. They have tried to cope with the measures proposed by the new public management, which is useful and which has led to gains. However—as you can see in the document that I prepared—challenges and risks remain.

I'll give you a few examples of the challenges. We can decentralize the central government and create agencies that provide services and take action on an operational level. The risk—and it exists—lies in the separation of policy and program development from practice. The practice no longer provides input, so we end up with ill‑suited policies and programs.

We could give a host of other examples. The infamous public‑private partnerships in particular pose more than just a risk. They seemed like a good idea and some people took the plunge. These partnerships made it possible to draw on the private sector's expertise and money in order to give the public sector the ability to tackle a number of collective challenges. However, we've seen the results in some cases, particularly in Quebec, but also in other places. They have led to a loss of expertise in public services and to government dependence on the market. Unfortunately, they have also led to higher costs—obviously—along with shenanigans and abuse.

This brings me to my final point. The reforms inspired by the new public management approach have failed to reduce deficits or halt the debt process. On the one hand, successful reform requires us to keep adding funds, not cutting them. Reforms can't succeed without new resources. On the other hand, remember that successive economic and financial crises have forced governments to make major investments in order to stabilize financial markets and support strategic sectors, for example.

I'll take the last 30 seconds to remind you that public administration is a government's first tool. As a result, we shouldn't consider it a black box that we expect to deliver the maximum while we allocate the minimum. Today, we can and must draw on the lessons learned in the past 50 years. For example, we must stop making cuts that result in the government losing or undermining its ability to defend its sovereignty, to support the country's socio-economic development and to provide quality public services to both people and businesses.

I'll stop here.

11:45 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley

Thank you, Professor Côté. I can understand how difficult it is to try to get all of that in in a few minutes. I certainly appreciate the start of that discussion.

We'll start with Mr. Berthold for five minutes.

Welcome back to OGGO, sir.

11:45 a.m.

Conservative

Luc Berthold Conservative Mégantic—L’Érable—Lotbinière, QC

Thank you.

I'm pleased to be back with you all.

Good morning, Mr. Côté.

As I said, I found out that you were here when I arrived at the meeting. I really wanted to ask you a few questions. The summary of your paper is quite concise. Indeed, we can't cover an issue of this nature in five minutes.

In general, I don't agree with your findings. I think that you know this.

However, you raised some issues. How far should the government go into debt? How many services should be added? Where do we draw the line? Sooner or later, when we have a credit card with no spending limit, we keep racking up the charges. At some point, this produces the exact opposite effect of what you're saying. We'll just have a government and we won't have a country anymore. Where do we draw the line? When I listen to you, I'm honestly afraid that some politicians will decide to give everything to the people so that they just need to wait for the government to do everything for them.

11:45 a.m.

Professor, As an Individual

Louis Côté

There are obvious limits. One of them is that you need to invest, and not just spend money on groceries, as people say. If you don't invest in education, your society will grow poorer. That's straightforward. If you don't invest in health, it will cost you a fortune in the long run. If you don't give yourself the tools to support the development of your national economy, you won't develop it.

In the long run, how do we generate more wealth? It isn't by running a country like an accountant. It's by investing intelligently. I agree that we shouldn't spend unnecessarily and that the budget isn't unlimited. That's obvious.

11:50 a.m.

Conservative

Luc Berthold Conservative Mégantic—L’Érable—Lotbinière, QC

This is important. People might resonate with what you're saying.

You spoke about education. I think that everyone here agrees that we need to look after our young people and education. We also need to make sure that Canada performs well and trains the best researchers and all that. I think that we agree on this.

In terms of health care, we all agree that we need to do more, especially when it comes to mental health. This cause is close to my heart, Mr. Côté.

You spoke about economic development. There are two schools of thought on this. One school of thought says that, when the government gets too involved, things go wrong. We could give you a whole list of examples of this, but we don't have time for that either. I'm thinking of some bad government decisions—made with public money—that wound up being costly. There have been some recent examples in Quebec. However, I don't need to list them, since everyone knows about them.

That said, you haven't really answered my question. Where's the line between a government that manages everybody's business and a government that becomes everybody's mother? At what point do we disrupt that line?

11:50 a.m.

Professor, As an Individual

Louis Côté

As far as I'm concerned, I think the welfare state is an important concept that has been established in many countries over the past 75 years. It's not a state that sees itself as a father or mother; it's a welfare state, in my view. So, I would tend to describe it that way.

As for public services, remember the mid‑1990s, when the Canadian federal government decided it needed to balance the budget. How did it do that? It balanced the budget by cutting transfers to the provinces. What was the result? It led to problems in education and health care, among other areas. Of course, it is not the federal government itself that manages health care and education. You say we all agree. Perhaps everyone would have said the same thing in the 1990s, that education is important. However, the decisions that were made resulted in cuts to education.

It's not rocket science. You can't make significant cuts without there being consequences.

11:50 a.m.

Conservative

Luc Berthold Conservative Mégantic—L’Érable—Lotbinière, QC

Obviously—

11:50 a.m.

Professor, As an Individual

Louis Côté

However, I agree with you that we shouldn't go overboard either. Look at the Scandinavian countries compared to France.

11:50 a.m.

Conservative

Luc Berthold Conservative Mégantic—L’Érable—Lotbinière, QC

I understand.

I just have one last question, and it's an important one. I'd appreciate it if you could answer it quickly.

Do you agree with me that there seems to be a disconnect between the political world, on the one hand, and public servants and government bureaucracy, on the other?

It seems that politicians have less and less confidence in the solutions. We're increasingly turning to outside experts. How do you explain that?

11:50 a.m.

Professor, As an Individual

Louis Côté

I think it depends first and foremost on the states. There are some states where this is less pronounced.

11:50 a.m.

Conservative

Luc Berthold Conservative Mégantic—L’Érable—Lotbinière, QC

We are talking about here.

11:50 a.m.

Professor, As an Individual

Louis Côté

At certain points in the history of Canadian public administration as I know it, government officials saw themselves as possessing their own legitimacy. I think that may have played a role.

On the other hand, I remember hearing politicians say that if we operated like the United States, everything would be fine. Look at how that turned out. When you centralize all authority and bring your cronies into all the top levels of the government, we know how that turns out.

I think we need to strike a balance. It's up to elected officials to make decisions. However, they shouldn't interfere in day-to-day management, or else things will clearly go off the rails.

11:50 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley

Thank you, Professor Côté.

Mr. Danko, we'll go to you for five minutes.

Welcome to OGGO, Mr. Danko.

John-Paul Danko Liberal Hamilton West—Ancaster—Dundas, ON

Thank you so much, Chair.

Mr. Côté, I apologize that my questions are going to be in English. I'm not going to make you suffer through my terrible French. If I am speaking too quickly and the interpretation is not keeping up, please let me know, so I can slow down.

I'm not a politician. I'm an engineer who is currently in a political role. Before I was elected in the city of Hamilton, I was a consulting engineer for 20 years. From that perspective, I see the value that external consultants bring in specialty expertise. I worked mainly on public sector jobs that were very specialized. It wouldn't have been cost-effective, or effective in any way, to have that particular expertise in-house.

When I was elected to the public sector as a representative for Hamilton, I got to see first-hand the amazing work that the public service does on a daily basis. I am absolutely a big supporter of bringing in expertise in-house, where it makes sense, to build up that capacity in the public service, but it also has to be balanced with those specialty areas where you do need an external consultant. In the spring economic statement, we are proposing to reduce spending on external management and other consulting services by about 20% over the next five years.

How do we find the balance of when to use external experts versus when to build capacity in-house?

11:55 a.m.

Professor, As an Individual

Louis Côté

It is indeed a challenge.

In a past life, I remember working on the relationship between in-house consultants and external consultants. I think we need to find a balance between the two. If you eliminate one of them, you're going to run into trouble. If there are no consultants, what I call internal consultants, whose status may be more or less clear, then there are no people whose expertise enables the government to avoid dependence on the private sector.

In the past, for example in Quebec, the issue came down to infrastructure and transportation. The ministry of transportation was stripped of its engineers. I can tell you that the private sector took full advantage of this, and it led to some serious missteps. It's not a good idea.

That said, I'm not as knowledgeable—you can tell by the colour of my hair—about what comes next, but I can tell you one thing: with everything we're doing right now with digitization and all that it entails, can we really afford not to have any strong in-house expertise in this area?

Let's look at what's happening in Quebec right now, what happened with the Société de l’assurance automobile du Québec, and everything that seems to be happening in the health care sector. We're dealing with multinational corporations that are calling the shots. How can we control that? I think there's room for both, and we need to combine the two areas of expertise.