Evidence of meeting #57 for Health in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was human.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Richard Aucoin  Chief Registrar and Director General, Registration Directorate, Pest Management Regulatory Agency
Peter Chan  Director General, Health Evaluation Directorate, Pest Management Regulatory Agency
Debra Bryanton  Executive Director, Food Safety, Canadian Food Inspection Agency
Sharon Watts  Vice-President, Corporate Services and Adjudication Branch, Hazardous Materials Information Review Commission

4:35 p.m.

Director General, Health Evaluation Directorate, Pest Management Regulatory Agency

Peter Chan

Thank you for the question.

When we use the animal models, in a lot of cases, to do what we call hazard identification, it's basically an internationally recognized standard, as I mentioned earlier. There are specific guidelines and interpretations that are internationally recognized by all the various countries, including the EU, Australia, and so on.

When we expose animals to certain chemicals and ask how is that going to be related to humans—and I agree with you—what we do is take the precautionary approach, and we actually apply what we call the uncertainty factor, or safety factors, which means we are not sure; therefore, we build in a certain margin of error or margin of translation from animal to human. So that builds in that so-called uncertainty in linking it from animal data, then, to the human environment. That is usually a factor of about 100 times, just to build in that uncertainty or that precautionary approach that we take.

Secondly, when we look at the risk assessment or the hazard identification, we also look at the end point or the level at which there is a certain effect being observed in animals or in rats. Also, as I mentioned, it's not only dealing with just one species. We look at more than one species. For example, we could do it in rats; we could do it in mice, or sometimes in dogs. So we look at the variability among the various species as well in the pre-market scenario.

From that we look at whether there is any concern about the age variation within the lifetime of the animals. Is there something that's more sensitive or obvious for the older animals? Is there anything of concern when they are reaching the later stage of their lifetime, or for pregnant women, and so on and so forth? When we identify those potential health concerns, we tack on another uncertainty factor of margin of safety, which is the margin where we say, okay, in order to be protective—that is, applying the precautionary approach again—we tack another uncertainty factor onto that.

By accumulating all this uncertainty, or the safety margin, if we want to call it that, including what we call the entire species in the sense that animal to human may be different, and when we talk about intra-species, within a population, let's say within the human populations, because of the various ages, races, and all that sort of stuff, there may be variability, so we apply that protective factor in addition to that.

By doing all this, we actually build in enough of what we call the margin of safety, but you can call it a margin of uncertainty, taking the precautionary approach to build in that comfort zone in order to develop what we call the acceptable daily intake.

4:40 p.m.

Liberal

Carolyn Bennett Liberal St. Paul's, ON

Are we doing population health models as well? We have concerns that people who live near a golf course or people who've been eating certain imported things because of cultural....

What kind of ability do you have to do GIS mapping of these kinds of things or the kind of actual, serious population health approach? I'm still not so sure about this individual toxic stuff. I think that's what's bugging people.

I guess the second part of this question is, how good are we at checking the stuff that's coming into this country anyway? I guess the question is, is it just that less is better? Are we figuring out now whether we have the capacity to even enforce whatever we're doing, in terms of the huge amounts of imports coming from other countries now?

With the FDA saying it can only check 1% of the drugs coming into their country, how are we doing on food?

4:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rob Merrifield

She's a little bit over time. I'll allow a very short answer to that.

4:40 p.m.

Director General, Health Evaluation Directorate, Pest Management Regulatory Agency

Peter Chan

In response to your first question about the monitoring in the human exposure scenario, Health Canada does participate in the biomonitoring and surveillance studies. As a matter of fact, the governmental initiative on the chemical management plan does allow us to do that biomonitoring.

4:40 p.m.

Liberal

Carolyn Bennett Liberal St. Paul's, ON

Are you doing breast milk? This is very important. You can't even sell breast milk in a grocery store because of all the garbage in it, right?

4:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rob Merrifield

I'm sorry, time has gone. We're going to move on to the next questioner. She'll have a chance maybe after, but we're going to move on.

Mr. Fletcher, it's your five minutes.

May 28th, 2007 / 4:40 p.m.

Conservative

Steven Fletcher Conservative Charleswood—St. James—Assiniboia, MB

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

My question deals with the issue around international harmonization. Are there any plans to harmonize the protection mechanisms with any other countries?

Could you also explain how Canada's trade secret mechanisms compare with, say, those of the United States or other countries?

4:40 p.m.

Chief Registrar and Director General, Registration Directorate, Pest Management Regulatory Agency

Richard Aucoin

I can certainly speak to the first question. In terms of harmonizing the protection mechanisms, we do an extensive amount of work in international regulatory cooperation with other countries around the world, specifically to learn best practices, to understand their systems, to see if there are areas where we could or should harmonize our efforts.

It's important to note that in most of these discussions there's not as much of a need to harmonize actual regulations and regulatory approaches as much as the basic processes that we use internally, in terms of regularly assessing pesticides. So it's a really important part of what we do internationally, to share best practices and to gain from their experience and gain access to the scientific expertise, and share our scientific expertise, frankly, because I would like to point out that Health Canada and the pest management regulatory agency have some of the best scientists and the best expertise around in terms of pesticide risk assessment.

4:40 p.m.

Conservative

Steven Fletcher Conservative Charleswood—St. James—Assiniboia, MB

My impression from just hearing the discussion this afternoon is that everyone on each side of the table is looking for assurance that health of Canadians is paramount. Can you provide that assurance to this committee and explain why this committee should have confidence in that assurance?

4:40 p.m.

Chief Registrar and Director General, Registration Directorate, Pest Management Regulatory Agency

Richard Aucoin

I think the record of what we've done...I guess I could start with the recent Pest Control Products Act, which parliamentarians supported very recently putting into force in 2006 and which strengthened very substantially the human health protection and environmental health protection components of the old legislation. That was a major accomplishment and I think a major strengthening of health protection in Canada.

4:40 p.m.

Conservative

Steven Fletcher Conservative Charleswood—St. James—Assiniboia, MB

That's the gist of my questions. Thank you very much.

4:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rob Merrifield

We will now move on to Mr. Malo.

4:45 p.m.

Bloc

Luc Malo Bloc Verchères—Les Patriotes, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I would like to discuss with the Canadian Food Inspection Agency the circumstances of a number of small businesses in several areas of Quebec and, I would imagine, of small businesses throughout Canada.

By year's end, labelling regulations will apply to all manufactured products, including cottage industry products made using non standardized recipes. The regulations will mean a number of fairly costly adjustments for very small businesses that are strapped for cash and that have low sales volumes.

Has the agency received any complaints from these kinds of businesses about new product labelling requirements? Have you given these businesses some tools to help them overcome the problems associated with the new regulations? Has the agency allowed for some exemptions in certain specific cases?

4:45 p.m.

Executive Director, Food Safety, Canadian Food Inspection Agency

Debra Bryanton

Thank you for that question.

As the committee is aware, nutrition labelling regulations did come into force for larger companies almost two years ago. They are due to come into force for small manufacturers--those are manufacturers, I believe, under $1 million a year--at the end of this year, in December of this year.

Many of the smaller companies have already assessed their products and have nutrition labelling, because they supply larger retailers or manufacturers. As a result, there are quite a large number of small manufacturers who have already worked to include nutrition labelling on their labels.

That being said, the approach we are using with this sector is similar to that of the large sector. In the beginning, our approach is more educational in nature. Following December, we will be looking to see which companies have not been in the position to include nutrition labelling on their labels and to work with them on how they could include this information on labels.

There are tools available to them. There are tools on our website, as well as on Health Canada's website, on building labels. We do include our inspector's tool kit. It's also available for industry.

We have an open invitation to meet with industry groups, should they wish to learn more about how to design nutrition labels or what kind of information is required to support the labels that are on products.

4:45 p.m.

Bloc

Luc Malo Bloc Verchères—Les Patriotes, QC

If small businesses that only sell to small retailers are not in a financial position to comply with the new labelling regulations by the end of the year, you are not about to force them out of business simply because they cannot comply, given the relatively high costs associated with the regulatory regime.

Have I understood you correctly?

4:45 p.m.

Executive Director, Food Safety, Canadian Food Inspection Agency

Debra Bryanton

We would continue to work with these manufacturers.

Now, there are some further exemptions. The exemptions are set by Health Canada when they publish the nutrition labelling regulations. And there are some further exemptions for very, very small companies.

That being said, our objective is to use a persuasive rather than a punitive approach. Our interest is in working with these companies so that they can apply the nutrition labels, rather than coming in with great enforcement action because they aren't.

But we are committed to continuing to work with them, because nutrition information, of course, is important to consumers and their decision-making as it relates to their health.

4:50 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rob Merrifield

Okay, thank you very much.

Now we'll move to our second round. We have Madam Brown, who would like to further some discussion.

The floor is yours.

4:50 p.m.

Liberal

Bonnie Brown Liberal Oakville, ON

Okay, good. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Some things have been said today that are a little conflicting.

We're dealing with all these other countries and internationally exploring ways to harmonize, and yet, Dr. Aucoin, you said we have the best scientists and the best methods and standards. Well, if ours are the best, why would we consider harmonizing with anybody?

Mr. Chair, if I may, I'll get these questions out, and then hopefully there will be enough time for them to answer.

The other thing Dr. Aucoin admitted was that this whole process is driven by trade. So my second question for him is this. Is he convinced that these differing standards that countries have really do interfere with trade?

4:50 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rob Merrifield

I'll just stop you there. I didn't hear him say that. Maybe I'll just allow him to correct that just to make sure there's no misunderstanding.

4:50 p.m.

Liberal

Bonnie Brown Liberal Oakville, ON

I think he implied it two or three times.

4:50 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rob Merrifield

Let's allow him to react to that.

4:50 p.m.

Chief Registrar and Director General, Registration Directorate, Pest Management Regulatory Agency

Richard Aucoin

What I indicated was that the discussions they're having internationally are being driven by trade concerns, but it is health that is going to drive those decisions.

4:50 p.m.

Liberal

Bonnie Brown Liberal Oakville, ON

I was going to get to that. But the process is being driven by trade concerns.

4:50 p.m.

Chief Registrar and Director General, Registration Directorate, Pest Management Regulatory Agency

Richard Aucoin

Discussion....

4:50 p.m.

Liberal

Bonnie Brown Liberal Oakville, ON

Okay.

Are you looking for proof, then, that differing standards do have a negative effect on trade? Or do you just accept that as a given if someone claims it?

I'd like to go on to Mr. Chan. Does your evaluation of these pesticide residues include extrapolating outwards about 40 or 60 years as to accumulation in the body? Does it also include evaluation of the interaction of the pesticide in question with other pesticides that might be accumulating in the body or other toxins from other sources?

On this whole thing about citizen engagement, on this whole thing about informing the public, most of us laugh whenever officials tell us that things will be put in the Canada Gazette, because we know that our constituents don't even know what the Canada Gazette is, much less ever read it. That's like saying we put it on a piece of paper in our pocket, to us. Only those people up on government processes check the Canada Gazette.

So I'm going to ask all of you, do you have any plans to enhance or improve citizen engagement with changes that are upcoming in any form?

I guess that's it.