Health Committee on Feb. 12th, 2009

[Patrick Brown, Conservative, Barrie, ON]

Have the compliance rates changed? If it's 22 out of--

[Dr. Brien Benoit]

The compliance rate has gone down slightly, and that's why we're having more investigations.

[Patrick Brown, Conservative, Barrie, ON]

Do we have any sense of the numbers for how it has changed?

[Dr. Brien Benoit]

Ms. Ouellet is just telling me that four years ago there were 45 investigations; now there are 90 investigations. So that means there are more drugs that seem to be offside in terms of the price. The rules haven't changed. We're hoping to modernize our guidelines, as we've mentioned before, in order to allow for a premium for these incremental innovations.

[The Chair, Conservative, Joy Smith]

Thank you, Mr. Benoit, for your answers.

Now we're going into the five-minute round. I'd like to start with Ms. Murray and Ms. Duncan. They'll be sharing their time.

Ms. Murray.

[Joyce Murray, Liberal, Vancouver Quadra, BC]

I'd like to ask a question about the CIHR supplementary. I notice that's a fraction of 1% of what I imagine the whole budget is, so it's a very small amount of extra.

I also noticed in some documents the granting council reduction in funding of $87 million over three years, so I'd like to ask what the CIHR share of that was, and in what way that ties into effectiveness, aligning of programs, and closer coordination.

[James Roberge, Chief Financial Officer, Canadian Institutes of Health Research]

As the minister reported at this table on Tuesday, we're still in the process of reviewing the impact of strategic review on our programming. We expect to be able to explain what the impacts are very soon, and we'll return to this table to give the details at that time.

[Joyce Murray, Liberal, Vancouver Quadra, BC]

Can we assume that basically the budget cuts were given to the organization and then you were told to find these good-sounding words like “improving effectiveness” and “alignment” and “fostering development” of new things to fit the budget cuts that were given to you?

[James Roberge]

The budget is prepared by the Department of Finance, not by CIHR, so I can't comment on the language that is in the budget.

[Joyce Murray, Liberal, Vancouver Quadra, BC]

Will there be grants affected by it? Obviously, this kind of research sometimes takes a few years to do. There may be a five-year program or whatever. Can you assure us that research under way will not have to be cancelled in mid-air because of funding cuts?

[James Roberge]

Again, we're still looking at the impacts, but of course we'll do everything we can to avoid disrupting commitments we've already made to researchers or research that's already under way.

[Joyce Murray, Liberal, Vancouver Quadra, BC]

So there are no new grants?

[James Roberge]

No, we'll still have close to $1 billion of funding to distribute next year.

[Joyce Murray, Liberal, Vancouver Quadra, BC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Joy Smith]

Ms. Duncan.

[Kirsty Duncan, Liberal, Etobicoke North, ON]

Thank you.

Mr. Benoit, I'm struggling with some of the same issues. The number being asked for is close to $5 million. This is an increase of 76%, and you've attributed this to more drugs coming on board. How many new drugs have come on board, and what is the percentage increase that would require that huge increase in money?

[Dr. Brien Benoit]

Madam, I can tell you that last year there were 74 new drugs introduced in Canada, which is a little bit more than in the years before. As we've said, previously these investigations and hearings and so on have led to the determination of excessive revenues in certain cases and those moneys have actually been collected back for the federal treasury. It's not a wasted exercise. In the first 18 years of this regime, we recovered approximately $25 million in excess revenues, and in the past two years it was approximately the same amount.

[Kirsty Duncan, Liberal, Etobicoke North, ON]

I understand that.

[Dr. Brien Benoit]

A lot of that is part of a voluntary compliance undertaking.

[Kirsty Duncan, Liberal, Etobicoke North, ON]

I also understand that, and it's my understanding the compliance rate is at 98%. So if 74 new drugs came on board last year, what percentage increase does that represent, and does that equal that 76% increase in funding?

[Dr. Brien Benoit]

I can't answer that offhand. Are you asking me basically how many of those 74 would ultimately go to a hearing and incur all those extra costs?

[Kirsty Duncan, Liberal, Etobicoke North, ON]

If we take what's happened in the past of 98% compliance, yes, what percentage is going to be tested? But if there is 98% compliance, do you require that 76% increase in funding?

[Dr. Brien Benoit]

Let me just say it's a hard question to answer. We're not wasting the money. Hearings are extremely expensive and we try to avoid them as much as possible. This is one of the reasons why we think our guidelines need to be modernized, because we might avoid a lot of the seemingly repetitive issues that come up in our hearings.

[Kirsty Duncan, Liberal, Etobicoke North, ON]

What is the average cost of a hearing? And of that 74, how many would go to hearings, please?

[Dr. Brien Benoit]

I don't know the answer, but maybe three, two, one.