Health Committee on Dec. 7th, 2009

[The Chair, Conservative, Joy Smith]

Ms. Davidson.

[Patricia Davidson, Conservative, Sarnia—Lambton, ON]

We've heard some conflicting information over the last couple of days. The comments that are in this motion are one side, but there is another side, and this motion is not entirely factual. We heard today that some people on the ethics committee were concerned. Those concerns had been resolved. They had been met. People at the highest level signed the agreement to have this person appointed. We've heard that the GC deals with things at the highest level. They don't micromanage. They handle many things very well, and they need the expertise of Dr. Prigent.

I'll be voting against this motion. I think it's terrible.

[The Chair, Conservative, Joy Smith]

Ms. McLeod.

[Cathy McLeod, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

What I was going to say is very similar to the opinion of my colleague. I see no point in reiterating her comments.

[The Chair, Conservative, Joy Smith]

Dr. Carrie.

[Colin Carrie, Conservative, Oshawa, ON]

I was going to mention the ethics question. It was clarified that things were resolved. As to the lawyers who brought forward hypothetical situations, I think they were very hypothetical. Once Dr. Rouleau explained what they did...anybody could read all kinds of hypotheticals into the situation, but I believe he clarified what they did. A lot of the arguments centred on his affiliation with a specific pharmaceutical company. That is not within the mandate of this committee, and I don't think it was useful to bring it up here. Any of the people they wanted would have been an active member of that sector. If you picked anybody from GlaxoSmithKline, Merck, or whatever, you would have people against that because of the company they belong to. I've seen it in competitiveness. It doesn't matter; you'll get your competitors arguing back and forth, and people will pose hypotheticals that maybe this or that could happen.

To judge by the mandate of the governing council and what was explained by Dr. Rouleau, this is a good appointment. I think we should move forward with it.

I think this motion is insulting.

[The Chair, Conservative, Joy Smith]

Dr. Bennett.

[Carolyn Bennett, Liberal, St. Paul's, ON]

We've heard a lot of concern, and we have a petition from a lot of people who know about these things. This is somewhat extraordinary. As Professor Downie said, doctors aren't people who tend to go online and sign petitions.

When I was about 12 years old, we had a debate about whether there would be dancing in the church. Some thought that if we held the dance in the church a number of people would be very upset. But if we held the dance somewhere else, everybody would be happy.

We are hearing that someone else could fill this gap who would not meet this kind of protest. There are many other people with expertise in commercialization who have not acquired it on the direct payroll of a pharmaceutical company. We hear voices saying that we need this kind of expertise on governing council, but we've also heard that there are a lot of people who could fill it without generating objections from thousands of people.

My temptation would have been to have a much simpler motion to say that we've heard the witnesses and we cannot recommend the appointment to the minister. People know that we've done the due diligence. People know that we've listened to many witnesses. In light of the counsel to “first do no harm” and the reputation of CIHR, I believe that this committee ought to listen to the dissenters and agree that someone else could fill this job without raising so many objections.

I will listen to Judy if she feels this is the wording she prefers. Or we could simplify it to say that the committee has heard witnesses and calls on the Prime Minister to withdraw the appointment. Moreover, we've heard that there are lots of other people who could do this.

Therefore, this is not a good appointment.

[The Chair, Conservative, Joy Smith]

I just want to make a point here that the committee in no way has any authority to withdraw appointments or anything else. These are opinions that are happening and their expressions. We've had both sides of it here today.

Ms. Wasylycia-Leis.

[Judy Wasylycia-Leis, NDP, Winnipeg North, MB]

Thank you very much.

First of all, I appreciate Joyce Murray's suggestion. She made a friendly amendment, which I'm quite prepared to accept. We tried to word this according to the provisions under the standing order and knowing that we might have to explain why we didn't feel that this particular appointee was competent for the job without insulting his personal integrity. However, I'm quite prepared to accept an amendment that would do as Joyce Murray suggested.

I also wanted to make a comment, though, to say very clearly that this has nothing to do with one particular drug company. It has nothing to do with the fact that he is a vice-president of Pfizer; it has everything to do with the fact that he is a vice-president or an employee of a pharmaceutical company. That has been the entire issue from witnesses who have expressed concern. It is the basis for why 4,000 people signed a petition.

I will just read you one phrase--it will take one second--and it will just be this: “The appointment of any individual who is an active member of a pharmaceutical company therefore cannot be justified by reference to the commercialization mandate.”

This is to show, in fact, that this is not about an individual, it is not about a particular drug company, it's not a vendetta, it's not a witch hunt. This is simply fulfilling our obligations to ensure that something as important as the CIHR, with a governing council, as you heard, that sets the objectives for research in this country, that defines the research institutes, that lays out the priorities, that determines overall funding strategies, has to be seen to be absolutely transparent and accountable, with no vested interests.

So that's all the purpose of this amendment and this motion is. If it's offensive for anyone to have these words in it, I will gladly withdraw that section. This is what Joyce had recommended, and it will read as follows:

Your committee has examined the qualifications and competence of the appointee and calls on the Prime Minister to withdraw Bernard Michel Prigent's appointment to the governing council of the Canadian Institutes of Health Research.

I'm prepared to accept that.

[The Chair, Conservative, Joy Smith]

Thank you, Ms. Wasylycia-Leis.

Mr. Valeriote. Did I pronounce your name correctly?

[Frank Valeriote, Liberal, Guelph, ON]

It's Valeriote as in “chariot”, Madam Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Joy Smith]

Thank you. I won't forget that. Valeriote as in “chariot”. There you go.

[Frank Valeriote, Liberal, Guelph, ON]

Everybody asks.

Are we voting first on the friendly amendment or is it deemed amended?

[The Chair, Conservative, Joy Smith]

There are two more people to speak, and then I thought--

[Frank Valeriote, Liberal, Guelph, ON]

No, but is there an amendment that's--

[The Chair, Conservative, Joy Smith]

Yes, we will be voting on that amendment first.

[Judy Wasylycia-Leis, NDP, Winnipeg North, MB]

It's the amended one, because I accepted a friendly amendment.

[The Chair, Conservative, Joy Smith]

The amended motion, yes.

[Frank Valeriote, Liberal, Guelph, ON]

I only want to bring to the committee's attention that given the friendly amendment, I don't know that Ms. McLeod or Ms. Carrie would have any objection to it, because it was those words that they found offensive in the first place, and it's proposed that they be removed. I'm not sure what you're arguing.

[The Chair, Conservative, Joy Smith]

Monsieur Malo.

[Luc Malo, Bloc, Verchères—Les Patriotes, QC]

I will answer directly to the question.

[The Chair, Conservative, Joy Smith]

Okay, after Dr. Carrie.

Dr. Carrie.

[Colin Carrie, Conservative, Oshawa, ON]

First, I'll let my colleague know it's not “Ms.” Carrie, but you can call me Colin.

[The Chair, Conservative, Joy Smith]

Dr. Carrie.