Health Committee on Nov. 4th, 2010

[Carol Hughes, NDP, Algoma—Manitoulin—Kapuskasing, ON]

Well, I don't think the evidence that I have to provide is to you. I think we need to do this for Canadians.

[Colin Carrie, Conservative, Oshawa, ON]

No, but which--

[The Chair, Conservative, Joy Smith]

Ms. Hughes, it is a point of order. Can you refocus your line of questioning, please?

[Carol Hughes, NDP, Algoma—Manitoulin—Kapuskasing, ON]

Well--

[The Chair, Conservative, Joy Smith]

Our purpose today is to go over the implementation of the recommendations of the Weatherill report, and you're diverting into another topic. Could we please keep on the topic? Go ahead, please.

[Carol Hughes, NDP, Algoma—Manitoulin—Kapuskasing, ON]

Okay. Well, I'm--

[Ujjal Dosanjh, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

On a point of order, Madam Chair, just because somebody happens to raise a point of order doesn't mean that the person who is asking the questions is always to redirect himself or herself. This issue is so clear. The Weatherill report is at the core of what we're talking about, and there are obstructionist points of order, and I would just say people should simply move on and ask their questions. Let them answer. The officials are here.

[The Chair, Conservative, Joy Smith]

Ms. Hughes, please continue as I directed you. Thank you.

[Carol Hughes, NDP, Algoma—Manitoulin—Kapuskasing, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I just want to go back to the Weatherill report, in which there was a comment: “implemented without a detailed assessment of the resources available to take on these tasks”. So this is where my question actually comes into play. Can I go ahead with my question?

[The Chair, Conservative, Joy Smith]

Yes, go ahead.

[Carol Hughes, NDP, Algoma—Manitoulin—Kapuskasing, ON]

Thank you very much.

So the question I've asked is whether the CFIA has been forced to bleed other inspection programs in order to beef up the meat hygiene program.

[Carole Swan]

No, we have not. The CFIA received part of the $75 million immediately after the publication of the independent investigator's report, which we devoted to meat inspection.

[Carol Hughes, NDP, Algoma—Manitoulin—Kapuskasing, ON]

So what about other high-risk foods, like fish? Can you tell me how frequently fish plants are actually inspected?

[The Chair, Conservative, Joy Smith]

Mr. Mayers.

[Paul Mayers]

Thank you.

The agency uses a risk-based approach, so it's not simply a one-plant, one-number approach.

Slaughter establishments for meat of course require continuous presence. As we've heard already, in terms of meat processing, they receive daily inspection visits.

In other areas of programming, the frequency of inspection is based on the risk posed. So there is no single number that would define how often, for example, a fish plant is visited. It would depend on their compliance history, the products they're producing; taken together, that will reflect a risk context that would define what is appropriate for inspection coverage for that particular facility.

[Carol Hughes, NDP, Algoma—Manitoulin—Kapuskasing, ON]

Thank you.

I'm just wondering whether you feel you actually have adequate resources to discharge your mandate at this point, given the number of inspectors you're indicating you will be putting in place, which we feel is not actually accurate in what needs to occur, given the fact that people are saying they still don't have enough time right now to do their tasks, that there's not enough staffing there. So I'm just wondering how the government can actually ensure that you have what you need to do your mandate.

[Carole Swan]

I will just make two comments.

As I mentioned before, the additional inspection capacity, which is both more people and more training, is a very important part of ensuring a safe system.

It's not the only thing we have been doing and the government has been investing in to make sure our food safety is preserved. It is through a series of audits, evaluations we do of ourselves, and independent reviews such as the 2010 ranking of countries that found Canada to be among the top countries in terms of food safety systems, as I mentioned earlier, that we understand that in fact we have a system that is functioning quite well.

I think it was Dr. Farber who said it's one of the ironies of the food safety business that the more you look, the more you'll find. We are finding more. That's a good thing, because we're looking more.

[Carol Hughes, NDP, Algoma—Manitoulin—Kapuskasing, ON]

Do I still have some time?

[The Chair, Conservative, Joy Smith]

I'm sorry, Ms. Hughes, your time is up, but thank you.

Ms. Davidson.

[Patricia Davidson, Conservative, Sarnia—Lambton, ON]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

Once again, I'd like to bring this discussion back more to the mandate of this committee, if we can do that, and talk about the health aspects, for which this committee does have the mandate.

One of the things Health Canada has done is strengthen the risk assessment capacity. I think you talked about that, Ms. Yeates, in your presentation. You talked about increasing the capacity by six FTEs over the last two years and being in the process of hiring an additional seven scientific health risk assessors. As well, you talked about the cross-training to provide surge capacity.

I wonder if you could elaborate a little bit more on that. Also, when you're talking about that, could you address one of the findings in the Weatherill report that stated that there were gaps in Health Canada's ability to provide 24/7 response to the CFIA requests for risk assessment?

[Glenda Yeates]

Thank you very much for the question. I'll begin and then I'll turn it to my colleague, Dr. Farber, to continue and amplify, since this is the area he is directly involved with.

It is very much the case that we have added resources to the area. And I mentioned in my comments that we would continue to meet the standard of 24/7 response time because we know these outbreaks can occur at any time. Certainly we've always had that standard and continue to meet it.

We now have additional staff, so again with this surge capacity, as we look more, we know that with more inspectors we will find more. There will be more volume coming our way. So while it's the case that we've been able to meet that consistently, we now know there's going to be more demand for our services, and we will continue to hold ourselves to that standard and be able to meet it with the increased numbers we're expecting to see at our end.

I'll now ask Dr. Farber to expand a bit on the way some of the cross-training and other aspects are working.

[Dr. Jeff Farber]

Thank you very much.

In terms of our cross-training, for example, we have an evaluation division in our bureau and we have two or three sections. One, for example, would be a policy section; another would be a risk assessment section. What we've actually done is to train people in the other sections in case of surge capacity, so they can also get involved in doing the risk assessment work. As our deputy mentioned, we've already increased the numbers and have added to the roster of risk assessment people we can call upon when the CFIA requests a health risk assessment for us.

In terms of the gaps that were mentioned in the report, I just want you to note that, in terms of the risk assessments that were actually done during the listeriosis outbreak, we met all the service standards at that time. We believe that some of the gaps that were mentioned were possibly when there was extra surge capacity. Let's say there were two or three or four outbreaks going on at the same time. We may have been overwhelmed at that point, as you can imagine, and that's what we've addressed now by hiring these extra people. In case we need that extra search capacity, we now have that on hand.

Thank you, Madam Chair.

[Patricia Davidson, Conservative, Sarnia—Lambton, ON]

Thank you.

Also in your opening remarks, Ms. Yeates, you talked about the revised policy on listeria for ready-to-eat foods, and you said it was published for consultation in March of this year and you had received feedback on it and done the revised policy.

With an effective date of April 1, 2011, to allow for orderly transition by industry and compliance and enforcement, can you elaborate what that transition will mean and what difference this is going to make for industry, as far as compliance goes, and for yourselves as far as enforcement goes?

[Dr. Jeff Farber]

As you know, we work very closely with the Canadian Food Inspection Agency. The outbreak of listeria, as you know, occurred in meats. We now have to take that one step further, because our Health Canada policy applies not only to meats but also to all foods sold in Canada, including dairy, seafood, and produce.

We've had to work very closely with the CFIA on when our policy comes out, giving them the overall general direction. They have already started to work with the various industries to see what the capacity or capability of some of these industries is to implement some of the things we have recommended in the policy.

I just want you to realize as well that when we are looking at listeria and some of these outbreaks, the United States, just to give you an example, had about seven or eight years to deal with some of the things that were going on with their meat outbreaks. We've had to do since 2008 what they did in seven to nine years in trying to get a better handle on things.

So overall, I think we have done an excellent job. We continue to work with the Canadian Food Inspection Agency. They've done a very good job. We've already also met with industry in pre-consultations. So a lot of this is really not going to be new to them; we've already consulted them and they know what's coming down. CFIA has also worked with them.

So I see it being a fairly smooth transition towards that April 1, 2011, date.

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Joy Smith]

Thank you, Ms. Davidson. Your time is now up.

We can't get through a whole round and still be fair to everybody, so I would suggest that we adjourn this segment of the committee meeting.

Monsieur Malo.